Points of Order (Hansard, 5 November 1987)

§ Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Following what the Leader of the House said about Tuesday's debate, it is manifest that the shape of the debate will depend on your attitude towards the selection of amendments. As you know, Mr. Speaker, I have it in mind, along with a number of my hon. Friends, to table an amendment that will allow the point about the research assistant of my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) to be brought before the House. Will you consider sympathetically the principle of allowing it?
Following your guidance yesterday, I went straight to Hansard to find the references to 1974 and 1975 to which you referred. The matter concerned an individual inquiry by the deputy commissioner of the metropolis into security in the Palace; there was no suggestion that it was an on-going committee. Before the debate on Tuesday, will you, Mr. Speaker, tell us whether the committee, at any stage and in any form, considered the individual case or cases of passes issued to my hon. Friend's research assistant or to other people?

§ Mr. Speaker
The right hon. Gentleman sent me a draft of his amendment to a motion that was not then on the Order Paper. I must say to the right hon. Gentleman that as an amendment it would not have been in order, but if he can get it in order I hope that it may be possible to select it. I intend, provided all the amendments are in order—this is a House of Commons matter—to select them so that every amendment can be debated within the scope of the Bill and perhaps voted on.

§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, through your Secretary, I drew your attention to the statement of Mr. Speaker Selwyn-Lloyd on 7 August 1985. He said: The Committee would be an informal one, as was the Committee under the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bottomley) to study the Compton Report, and not a Joint Select Committee set up by Resolution of both Houses. It will report jointly to myself and, I understand, to the Lord Chairman of Committees in the House of Lords: so far as this House is concerned it will then be for me, in consultation with the Leader of the House, to consider what further action should be taken; in particular whether all or part of the Report, which is at present graded Secret, should be laid on the Table of the House."—[Official Report, 7 August 1975; Vol. 897, c. 732.] The first part of my point of order refers to the Starritt committee report, and whether any reference will be made before the debate to that part of it that was secret and may have covered the vexed question of vetting.
I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to another statement of Mr. Speaker Selwyn-Lloyd. He referred to The terms of reference of the Committee"— you were a member of that committee, along with the late Sir Robert Cooke, Mr. Dick Buchanan and Mr. Walter Harrison, so you will probably recollect the terms of reference better than anybody else. They were: 'To consider the review of security at the Palace of Westminster carried out by Sir James Starritt CVO, formerly Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police, and to make recommendations'."—[Official Report, 31 October 1975; Vol. 898, c. 1947.] I do not think that the subject of vetting is mentioned anywhere. You will recollect that yesterday, in answer to a query from myself on a point of order, you said: It is an advisory committee which advises the Speaker. I shall reflect on how much I can say about it."—[Official Report, 4 November 1987; Vol. 121. c. 934.] 1082 I gave the Clerk notice that I would ask, through a point of order, whether you have had time to reflect on these delicate issues.

§ Mr. Speaker
The matters that the hon. Gentleman has raised can be covered in the debate next Tuesday. May I draw his attention to other references inHansard, on 29 March 1976 and 27 July 1977, both of which touch on the same matter.
I did not answer the question of vetting, but I must tell the hon. Gentleman that the committee to which he drew my attention, of which the House is aware as a result of these references, does not vet anyone; it is an advisory committee to Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Dalyell
rose—

§ Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I cannot say any more, and I do not intend to do so at the moment.

§ Mr. Dalyell
Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. The substantial question that bothers us is whether evidence in relation to such a matter is seen by any elected Member of the House of Commons. Some of us consider it important that at least—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. That evidence was not seen.

§ Mr. Marlow
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, As I understand it, hon. Members are here to represent the interests of their constituents. They are our masters; we have one master to serve. I understand that there is a rumour—it may be no more than that—that there is a compulsory levy being placed on Labour Members—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. Even if that rumour were true, it would have nothing to do with me as the Speaker of the House of Commons.

§ Mr. Dalyell
rose—

§ Mr. Marlow
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I say to both hon. Gentlemen that this is an Opposition day and many right hon. and hon. Gentlemen wish to take part in the debate. There will be a debate on Tuesday next week on this matter. They should reserve their fire until hen. I cannot say any more than I have said today and yesterday.

§ Mr. Dalyell
Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Before the debate next week, would it be possible to have a written submission from you, not on opinions but on the fact of the matter? Some of us are horrified that these decisions are taken by the Serjeant at Arms or somebody else rather than Mr. Speaker or somebody who has been elected.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman knows—certainly his right hon. and hon. Friends are aware of this—that that decision was taken by me. It was a decision that I did not relish—

§ Mr. Dalyell
But you did not see the evidence.

§ Mr. Speaker
I did see the evidence, or had evidence. I have a responsibility that I must exercise and I had to take a decision. As the House knows, the pass was suspended and my decision will now be debated on Tuesday, which I welcome.

§ Mr. Robert Adley (Christchurch)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
I do not think that it will help me.