HC Deb 04 November 1987 vol 121 cc917-8
2. Mr. Devlin ask

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the number of people in England currently paying the full domestic rate; and what number are eligible to vote in local council elections.

The Minister for Local Government (Mr. Michael Howard)

On the basis of the latest figures, there are about 12.6 million paying domestic rates in full in England compared with 35.8 million eligible to vote in local council elections.

Mr. Devlin

Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that if one tried to put this iniquitious system before the House today it would fail? On that basis, does he agree that the time has come to press forward with the community charge as soon as possible?

Mr. Howard

Yes. It is precisely because no other proposal offers the advantages in accountability that the community charge offers, and because accountability is the last thing that the hon. Gentlemans' friends in local government want, that they are so desperate in their opposition to our proposal.

Mr. Simon Hughes

I hope that the Minister is not trying to mislead the House by the answer that he gave. Households including many people pay domestic rates. At the moment, how many people contribute to domestic rates by virtue of being households? That is the first question.

My second question——

Mr. Speaker

Order. In fairness to everyone, there should be only one question.

Mr. Howard

The bills go to one person in the house, and 12.6 million people receive them.

Mr. Heddle

Will my hon. and learned Friend confirm that of the 18 million ratepayers who should pay rates one third do not pay them in full or in part? Will he further confirm that that does nothing for local democracy and that it is necessary, in order to strengthen local democracy, to introduce a fairer, more broadly based system as soon as possible and to build in all possible safeguards to ensure that the poorest section of the community does not suffer?

Mr. Howard

I agree with my hon. Friend. The new system will be fairer than the present system, and it is becoming increasingly recognised as such.

Mr. Rooker

Does the Minister accept that the 12 million spouses of the direct ratepayers to whom he referred will not take kindly his remark that they are not contributing to the rates? That was a very unfair point. Does he accept that, for Opposition Members, universal franchise is not negotiable—as implied in the question and his answer to it—either nationally or locally? The ability to vote must never be related to the ability to pay.

Mr. Howard

I can understand the hon. Gentleman's hesitation in coming to the Dispatch Box. Last month he said that he did not want to be sent naked into the debating chamber. However, he is sitting here today and he is not a pretty sight. Conservative Members hope that his hon. Friends will clothe him as soon as possible.

A recent study for the Audit Commission showed that spouses and others who do not receive the bills are three times less likely to know even that local rates have increased, still less what their level is. That is the truth of accountability.