§ 2 Mr. Tom Coxasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent discussions his Department has had with the Prison Officers Association on fresh start; and if he will make a statement.
§ The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Douglas Hurd)Officials have had extensive discussions with representatives of the Prison Officers Association about fresh start in recent months. I myself had a constructive meeting with the national chairman and the general secretary of the association last Monday, when I was able to welcome the national executive committee's recent decision to allow branches to co-operate with development exercises under way in prisons. I hope to announce shortly a revised offer to all the trade unions concerned, as a basis for an agreed implementation of fresh start.
§ Mr. CoxI welcome the Home Secretary's reply, but the fact that he is revising his proposals is surely ample evidence that the original proposals were not good enough for what he is attempting to persuade the prison officers to accept? If fresh start is to have any success, is he aware that there must be substantial increases in staffing levels in prisons and a realistic pay settlement without the conditions that fresh start sought to impose?
§ Mr. HurdWe have proposed to revise our offer in the light of the discussions that we have had with the unions concerned, including the POA. I hope that that will lead to agreed implementation, which is crucial. More staff will continue to be required, but we must get away from the present system, which relies far too much on overtime and, as we know, means that about 15 per cent. of the money that Parliament votes for the running of prisons is wasted. With the fresh start proposals, we shall be able to put together a reformed prison service with much more reasonable practices and much better terms of service for all those who work within it.
§ Mr. Nicholas WintertonI am sure that my right hon. Friend will accept that prison officers carry out a difficult job, often in difficult circumstances. Does he agree that he went to the nub of the problem when he talked about overtime? Will he try to ensure that in the new deal which I hope will be negotiated prison officers will not lose pay as overtime is phased out and the new pay arrangements are introduced? That is important. Unless that assurance can be given, there will be continuing difficulty.
§ Mr. HurdObviously, one of the features of the package must be an understanding about take-home pay as overtime is reduced. To return my hon. Friend's compliment, that is exactly the nub of the negotiations. When we put the revised offer to the POA—I hope that that will take place shortly—I hope that it will recognise the valiant efforts that we have made to meet the points put to me by the POA and by my hon.Friend.