HC Deb 05 March 1987 vol 111 cc1011-3
1. Mr. Nellist

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has any plans to review staffing levels in fire authorities; and if he will make a statement.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Douglas Hogg)

We are currently reviewing the staffing levels of the seven fire and civil defence authorities as part of the process of making and approving their establishment schemes for 1987–88. This is in accordance with the provisions of the Fire and Civil Defence Authorities (Establishment, Support Services and Management Schemes) Regulations 1985. More generally, the staffing levels in fire authorities are among the matters considered by Her Majesty's inspectors of fire services during their annual inspections of brigades. Where appropriate Her Majesty's inspectors give advice to us and to fire authorities about the effective, efficient and economic use of resources.

Mr. Nellist

Is the Minister effectively announcing a cut in the staffing levels of fire authorities by not giving sufficient finance for them even to maintain their present staffing and training levels? Is he aware, for example, that south Yorkshire—an area that traditionally has had good standards — because of the present financial restrictions will be 124 fire fighters short even of his Department's own statutory levels? Why does the Minister put people at risk in that way?

Mr. Hogg

There is no question of people being put at risk. In south Yorkshire, the authority will have no difficulty providing adequate cover. The right hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that, in the west midlands, an area which concerns him most intimately, expenditure for the coming year, as implied by the maximum precept, is 7.6 per cent. above last year's budget. That is substantially in excess of the rate of inflation and significantly in excess of the cost of the fire workers' pay settlement. In the circumstances, the hon. Gentleman's observations are a trifle ungenerous.

Mr. Conway

Is my hon. Friend aware that morale in the Shropshire fire service was extremely high when I visited it on Monday and that its response to the rail crash in Shropshire on Monday night was extremely efficient? Will he take this opportunity to thank employers in rural areas who enable retained part-time firemen to take time off from their business duties to help those in rural areas who do not have the full-time fire service that is available in built-up areas?

Mr. Hogg

I greatly welcome what my hon. Friend said. I am sure that his visit was much appreciated by the firemen in his area. I entirely agree with what he said about retained firemen who make a significant contribution to fire cover in his area and, indeed, in my constituency of Grantham.

Mr. Meadowcroft

Is the Minister aware that we in west Yorkshire are prepared to accept staffing levels and levels of service that are laid down by his Department, but is he aware also that the Secretary of State for the Environment refuses to allow a sufficient precept level to enable the county to maintain the staffing levels and levels of services that are set by the Home Office? How does the Minister reconcile that?

Mr. Hogg

We are wholly satisfied that the standard of cover in west Yorkshire is adequate for the purpose of providing an adequate fire service.

Mr. Favell

Will my hon. Friend examine the cost of council involvement in fire and civil defence authorities? In greater Manchester, for example, there are five committees, all with various sub-committees, involved in what would appear to be a service that should virtually run itself.

Mr. Hogg

I shall always consider any submission that my hon. Friends care to make to me on this and related matters. In Manchester there is no problem as the expenditure increase implied by the precept is more than generous.

Mr. Dubs

Apart from the fact that both west Yorkshire and south Yorkshire cannot reach the fire cover standards of the Home Office, will the Minister confirm that as part of the review there are plans to reduce the opening hours of fire stations in many areas from 24 hours to nine, and that one of them is Godstone fire station, which provides a vital service to the M25? If the cuts are implemented, they will result in serious danger to life.

Mr. Hogg

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. Expenditure increases for 1987–88, as implied by the precepts, are in a band of 7.5 per cent. of 6.1 per cent. over the 1986–87 budget. The hon. Gentleman has referred to a particular fire station. If he requires an answer on that, he must table a specific question.