§ 10 pm
§ Mr. MaxtonI beg to move amendment No. 51, in page 8, line 37, at end insert
'The Secretary of State shall in each year ensure that each full time student eligible for a grant from any award granting authority shall receive from him a sum equivalent to the personal community charge levied by the local authority in which he is resident during term time.'.970 Our previous subject for debate might have been more interesting and lively, but it is not the one which bears most heavily on the effect of the poll tax on the people of Scotland.Clause 10 implements the community charge for each individual. The Secretary of State has separated students and made them a completely different category. He does not want to give them relief under the rebate scheme or to include them among people who may move in the course of their job. There are many people in Scotland who do that, including us. The right hon. and learned Gentleman suggests that community charge should be imposed on them where they are full-time students. it is not to be imposed on them at their home address and they are not allowed to make a choice between the two.
Many university students will pay more.
§ Mr. HendersonMany will pay less.
§ Mr. MaxtonThe Secretary of State has said that he is prepared to give up to 80 per cent. of the average community charge in Scotland to those in receipt of a grant. Only at Aberdeen university, however, is the personal community charge below the average. Only at St. Andrews university is it on the average. At Edinburgh, Stirling and Glasgow universities, the charge is above the average. It is not true, therefore, that university students will pay less.
§ Mr. HendersonI meant that some students who currently pay rates but get no compensation in their grant will by definition be better off under the new arrangements.
§ Mr. MaxtonIt is not necessarily true that people do not get anything off rates. A married couple in a flat, for example, will get a higher allowance because of their circumstances. If a student shares a flat with a group of people, the burden of rates is shared across all the people within that flat. Earlier we heard from the Minister the contention that students who are in halls of residence pay in rent something towards the rates. At least that was what it sounded like. If the Minister wishes to contradict that, I shall give way.
§ Mr. AncramTo set the record straight, I said that those who live in flats in many cases pay rates themselves or could find themselves paying a proportion of the rates to their landlords through their rental payments. I specifically excluded halls of residence, as I understand that, in most cases, there is not a great rates element involved in what they pay there.
§ Mr. MaxtonI am glad that the Minister has cleared that point up, because his earlier remarks on the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) were confusing.
Students who live in flats contribute something towards the rates. Those who live in halls of residence do not. Even students who live at home and who pay their parents something towards their keep contribute, or may contribute, something towards the rates. However, the Minister has stated verbally, and in the commentaries and press releases that have been put out about students, that he will be giving, on top of the awards, a certain sum of money to make up for the fact that students must pay the community charge. However, nothing in the Bill says that. That is a promise made by a Government whom I know that many students in Scotland distrust very much.
971 That promise may well be maintained in the first year by an increase in the student grant, but there is no guarantee whatsoever — certainly not from this Government, judging by what they have done with student grants during the past few years — that that money would be paid in any year thereafter. That is quite clear.
I have yet to be convinced by the Minister that the local authorities in England and Wales will be prepared to pay that sum of money to students from their authorities who go to Scottish universities.
That money does not cover and will not cover students who in any way finance themselves through a year or two years at university. That includes especially students who are repeating a year for any reason, perhaps because of failure. It also includes some other students who may be financing their own courses. They will all pay the personal community charge.
§ Mr. HendersonOn the hon. Gentleman's remarks about students financing themselves, a student has only to be eligible for a grant to be entitled to gain from this provision, as I understand it. Even if their parents pay entirely for their maintenance and they receive no grant, they will still receive assistance towards the community charge.
§ Mr. MaxtonThat is not the way that I understand it. The Minister may help the hon. Gentleman and myself on that point, but, as I understand it, there is nothing in statute and nothing in the Bill that says that the Minister has to pay anything at all towards it. We are relying entirely upon the words of the Minister in this matter. I am trying to make the point that a student who has failed a year's studies and who wishes to repeat that year may not be eligible for a grant, or if he is eligible for a grant that year, he may well not be eligible for a grant in his last year at university because limits are put on the eligibility of grants. Nevertheless the student will still have to pay his own community charge.
There is no way in which—I accept that even with my amendment there is no way—the large numbers of foreign students who come to our universities and who are already put off by the increase in fees that they have to pay in Scottish universities, will be eligible for any help from the Scottish Office in terms of those grants.
My amendment would give to students the power to place a statutory obligation upon the Secretary of State to ensure that each full-time student eligible for grant from any award-granting authority shall receive the sum equivalent to the personal community charge levied by the local authority in which the student is resident during term time. In other words, my amendment would take the average Scottish personal community charge, put it into statute, and ensure that a student's local authority will receive the money. In fact it would give 100 per cent. rebate for students in regard to the community charge.
Students are aware of what may happen to them with the personal community charge. They think that it may be yet another disincentive to prevent poorer people from taking up full-time higher education. Hon. Members should not take that lightly. Our aim should be to encourage people to take up opportunities in full-time education. We are desperately short of skilled and educated people. Everyone who can go to university should. Any disincentive put in the path of people going 972 to university should be deplored, but I am afraid that that is what the Government are doing with the personal community charge.
§ Mr. AncramI listened carefully to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) and was surprised to hear him raise the matter of foreign students and students who repeat courses. His amendment—
§ Mr. MaxtonI said that foreign students were not covered by my amendment.
§ Mr. AncramA reading of the amendment suggests that the eligibility for the payment which he suggests is precisely the same as that proposed by the Government. The amendment seeks to require my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State to reimburse all full-time students eligible for grants with a sum that would exactly cover their personal community charge liability. I cannot accept that.
Although we accept that students will require help to enable them to meet their personal community charge liabilities, it is not appropriate that that help should be provided either in the way that the hon. Gentleman described—which would be a new form of assistance—or through the social security system, because our longer-term aim is to remove students from entitlement to social security benefits and to return to the position where they depend on grants or a parental contribution and on their vacation earnings.
In that light, we have proposed that students eligible for grant, including those — this is an important point—who, because of parental income, receive no grant payments at present and who may often for that reason be some of the least well off students at university, should receive a flat rate sum each year towards their personal community charge liability. This will have regard to the level of assistance available under the rebate system for people on low incomes. The likely figure is a minimum contribution of 20 per cent., as we discussed earlier. It is likely that the same assumption will be made in the grants system.
§ Mr. DouglasWill the Minister help me, because I am not clear about the inter-relationship between the grants system run by the Scottish education department and the system administered in England and Wales? A number of the people who will pay the personal community charge will be in receipt of grants from local authorities in England and Wales. What discussions has the hon. Gentleman had with local authorities and the Secretary of State for Education and Science to reimburse those students? At what level will they be reimbursed? What administration will be available for that purpose?
§ Mr. AncramObviously, the hon. Gentleman would not be surprised to learn that this matter has been discussed at great length with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. We would not make a proposal of this sort if we did not believe that it could be administered. Grants in Scotland effectively come from three sources. If the hon. Gentleman wishes I can, with a little notice, give him the exact proportions in which they are paid. The sources are the Scottish education department, Scottish local authorities and English and Welsh local authorities paying for students in Scotland.
973 10.15 pm
Having considered the matter, we believe that it will not be difficult to change the administrative rules in each case to ensure that a supplementary grant payment of the sort that I am describing could be made available to students in Scotland.
It would be quite wrong to follow the course that the amendment suggests, of reimbursing students in full for their personal community charge liability. It is a basic principle of the reformed social security system, which will be brought into effect on 1 April 1988 as a result of the provisions of the Social Security Act 1986, that all those liable for local taxation payments should make some contribution towards them. That principle has been fully debated and accepted by Parliament and will apply to all those liable for the personal community charge. I cannot see a reason for students to be exempt from that rule. The assistance that we propose through the grant system will allow them to receive help along broadly the same lines as we are providing through the rebate system for others on low incomes. The system is fair and equitable. It takes the students' position fully into account. For that reason, I resist the amendment.
The hon. Member for Cathcart went a little wide of the amendment and talked about the deeming provisions in that part of the Bill that affects students. We discussed this matter at length in Committee. I made it clear to the hon. Gentleman—it is worth reiterating it to the House—that the reason we decided that students should be deemed to be solely or mainly resident at their place of university is that, by the nature of university education, they would otherwise be capable of being registered up to six times, if not eight times in the case of Stirling university, at different residences during the course of a year. It was considered that, as in most cases students are likely to spend most of their time at their place of university education, it was simpler for their sake and administratively to have them deemed to be resident at their place of study.
§ Mr. MaxtonThe Minister's argument is farcical. Many people, including hon. Members, live in two places at several times during the year. We have two residences, and we change our addresses weekly. We certainly move out of London during the three-month Parliamentary recess and at Easter and Christmas. It is a simple matter. The Minister has only to say that a student shall deem one place to be his sole or main residence. That is a qualification under clause 10, anyway.
§ Mr. AncramI have to be a little cautious, because that point is not part of the amendment. When we discussed this matter in Committee—the hon. Gentleman referred to the lives led by hon. Members—the hon. Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) rather plaintively said that he knew where his home was. If he looks at the provisions for sole or main residence, he will see that the situation is effectively quite different in regard to a Member of Parliament who travels a great deal, as opposed to a student who is known to be in a particular place for a certain length of time and then to move to another place for another length of time. Under the provisions of the legislation, the sole or main residence could change several times during a year, to the disadvantage of the person concerned. To accept reality, apart from anything else, and to simplify matters, a decision was taken to deem them to be resident.
§ Mr. HendersonThis matter is of considerable importance to local authorities that have a substantial student population. Six hundred and fifty hon. Members will not make much difference to heaven knows how many London boroughs, but 3,000 students at St. Andrews will make a great difference to the economics of a district council such as Fife or a comparatively small district council such as Stirling.
§ Mr. AncramMy hon. Friend made a valid point. The students in his and my constituencies might partake of the services provided by local authorities. It is in line with the principles of the Bill that they should be expected to make a contribution towards such services.
The hon. Member for Cathcart suggested that students should be exempted from the community charge. However, it would be difficult to justify one brother in a household, just because he is a student, paying no community charge while another brother, who might be unemployed and who would therefore be on the maximum rebate that is available, was paying a minimum contribution. Our scheme, in the form of proposals that will have to be fully worked up by the time that the community charge becomes payable, creates a degree of fairness and parity between those two categories, which I believe is right. On that basis, I ask my hon. Friends to resist the amendment.
§ Mr. DouglasI listened with interest to the intervention of the hon. Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Henderson). He is concerned about the students of St. Andrews university. We all share his concern. However, if the hon. Gentleman was truly concerned about those students, he ought to have asked his Government to sort out the problem. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman has not been very successful, because the problem has not been sorted out.
According to figures that I have obtained from the Library, in 1984–85 there were 9,310 full time students—8,220 undergraduates and 1,090 postgraduates—at Scottish universities who were domiciled elsewhere in the United Kingdom. I do not know what proportion of those students came from England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Students will need a subvention to enable them to pay the poll tax.
It was suggested that it would be very unfair if a student in a household did not have to pay the poll tax. However, the reverse is also true. I am told that in 1984–85 there were 2,980 full-time students and 2,140 undergraduates and 840 postgraduates domiciled in Scotland who went to universities elsewhere in the United Kingdom. If they are domiciled in Scotland but go to a university elsewhere in the United Kingdom, they will be benefiting from local authority services in those areas, but they will not be paying the poll tax. By trying to cater for students, we are creating absurd anomalies.
Student grants cannot be discussed in this debate, lout considerable anomalies will be created, particularly in the case of those who rely on parental contributions. Many parents make no payment, and that is very hard on students. Students must be compensated in some way or another for the poll tax. Local authorities in England, Wales and Northern Ireland will have to receive about £3 million for students. If these local authorities have 10,000 students in the universities, how much money will students receive to enable them to pay a personal liability that is imposed upon them?
975 The hon. Member for Fife, North-East said that it is cleared up. I submit that it is not cleared up and unless the Minister can tell us what the position is tonight, I would imagine that he has some responsibility to get the matter cleared up in another place or certainly—I speak personally—we will be pressing for further clarification during other debates.
Students are in a difficult position and I take the general view that this is not something that we can cast aside. It is an additional burden on students, perhaps in the region of £200 or £300 a year, and it is not something we can take lightly. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Fife, North-East, that it may be a disincentive for students from England and Wales.
§ Mr. HendersonAt worst, it would have been for one year during the transition. However, now that the transitional period has been telescoped, it will not arise at all as a serious problem.
§ Mr. DouglasThat may mean that the hon. Gentleman has some understanding that Scotland is going to be the guinea pig for a shorter period, but one does not know.
There is an imbalance for 7,000 students, 10,000 if we take the net total, and it must be clarified. It has to be a payment that will be imposed in one way or another by English, Welsh and perhaps Northern Irish local authorities on students who come to Scotland. I ask the Minister not to be so sanguine and cavalier about it. We need much more clarification than we have been given.
§ Mr. MaclennanI agree with the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Mr. Douglas) that there is a need for greater clarity from the Minister as to how he envisages students being compensated to the level of 20 per cent.
§ Mr. AncramEighty per cent.
§ Mr. MaclennanYes, to the level of 80 per cent.
The mechanisms are important and the Minister has not revealed anything tonight about how it is proposed that the moneys should be made available. It is not clear whether it is to be duty imposed upon English local authorities to pay the additional grants and whether, if they do discharge that duty, they will be compensated by central Government. It is understood that in so far as the grants come directly from central Government, students can be recompensed, but it is not clear, when the grants are payable by local authorities, whether it is to be treated as mandatory or discretionary on local authorities.
The Minister has added to the confusion felt among students as to what their position will be, not only in respect of their duty to pay the poll tax in Scotland, but as to how they will be placed vis-a-vis students in other parts of the United Kingdom. Is there going to be a period in which it is financially better for students in Scotland to attend universities in other parts of the United Kingdom? Will the extra cost operate as a disincentive to English, Welsh or Northern Irish students to attend Scottish universities?
Those matters have not been clarified by the Minister and I hope that he will take the opportunity of this debate to explain more precisely than he yet has what mechanisms he has in mind. It is plain that he has not worked the whole thing out, and I do not entirely blame him for that. However, he should be a little forthcoming about what he would wish to see done.
§ Mr. MaxtonI find it difficult to believe that students like hon. Members, do not know where their homes are. Most students are quite clear that their home is where they have come from, where they go home at the recess and where their parents live. I cannot see that the Minister's arguments have much validity.
As the Minister has left things now—
§ Mr. AncramI was going to explain.
§ Mr. MaxtonThe Minister says that he was going to explain, but it would have been usual for him to intervene before I rose to speak.
The point is that as things stand and as the Minister has left matters, if he pays each student 80 per cent. of the average Scottish personal community charge, a student at Aberdeen university, Robert Gordon's college of technology, or the college of education in Aberdeen will make a profit and be in pocket by about £15 a year. As I understand it, the community charge average is about £220 in Scotland and I believe that in the Grampian region and in Aberdeen the community charge will be about £170. Therefore, money will be put in the students' pockets. A student at St. Andrews university will pay roughly £44 a year because that is about 20 per cent. of £220.
§ Mr. HendersonIt is £39.
§ 10.30pm
§ Mr. MaxtonVery well, £39.
A student at Strathclyde university, Glasgow university, the Glasgow college of technology, or the Jordanhill college of education or the art college and students at the other colleges in Glasgow and Edinburgh will be paying close to £100 a year. I believe that that is a very unfair discrimination between different groups of students in different parts of the country. The Minister may want to reconsider that point.
If students are to be treated in this way, there should be a statutory obligation upon the Secretary of State to provide relief to students. It is fine for the Minister to say that he will increase grants and do this and do that. However, there is no obligation in law for him to do so. Students have seen what the Government have done with their grants and quite rightly they do not trust the Government. They believe that something will probably go wrong. They may get the 80 per cent. of the community charge in the first year, but in the coming year the grant will only rise by 1 per cent. and not by the full amount of inflation. Therefore, the payment will be eroded until eventually there is no allowance for the community charge within the Secretary of State's proposals. There must be a statutory obligation.
The way in which the Minister is handling this matter will mean that there will be some students to whom he cannot guarantee the grant. I have yet to hear from the Secretary of State how he will oblige Birmingham to pay this sum of money to students who go to St. Andrews university. If two students go to Birmingham council and ask for grants to go to university and the council only has enough money to provide one grant, the council will give it to the student going to an English university which does not have the extra poll tax. The council will not allow the other student to go to the Scottish university. There is a disincentive. Much of the information that I have received on this matter has come from a member of the court of St. Andrews university who is equally not a supporter of the 977 Labour party. He is gravely concerned that there will be a disincentive for students to go to Scottish universities unless there is an inbuilt statutory obligation upon the Secretary of State to provide help.
§ Mr. HendersonThe hon. Gentleman must not make the English too worried about this, for two reasons. First, all English students going to Scottish universities will receive help to meet the community charge. Secondly, at the moment, a very large proportion of the English students at St. Andrews receive no grant or assistance towards their rates bills when they live in flats outside the university. In future, they will get assistance towards their community charge payments, so they will be a good deal better off twice over.
§ Mr. MaxtonThe Minister has given us no clear idea of how he will ensure that English local authorities will pay this money. Indeed, he has given us no clear assurance that he will allow students any relief. If he will stand up and give an undertaking that this will become a statutory obligation, I shall be interested to hear what he has to say.
Students certainly wish to see a statutory obligation placed upon the Secretary of State to provide such relief. The Opposition believe in 100 per cent. grants and 100 per cent. rebates for all those whose income is at a certain level. That is an issue of principle between us and the Government. The Government have not given students the commitments that they require. The provision should be statutory, and I ask my hon. Friends to vote for the amendment.
§ Mr. AncramWith the leave of the House, I wish to reply to the debate. I had hoped to speak before the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton), but I waited to see whether anyone else wished to take part, and the hon. Gentleman was very anxious to speak.
The hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Mr. Douglas) asked about the parental contribution and made the valid point that those students who receive the full parental contribution receive no subsistence grant and have problems. I made it clear that although they may receive no grant at present, under the scheme that we propose they would receive the supplementary grant towards their community charge. That will be warmly welcomed by the students affected. The hon. Gentleman asked what sum had been agreed. The sum will depend on the level of community charge in Scotland, upon the average of which the supplementary grant will be worked out, and on the number of eligible students. It is impossible, two years off the time when this measure is likely to apply, to give the hon. Gentleman an idea of what it will cost.
The hon. Members for Dunfermline, West, for Cathcart and for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) asked how the scheme would be made to work. I can tell them that the awards scheme in England is mandatory. Although it is operated by the local authorities, it is under the direction of the Department of Education and Science, which compensates local authorities for the awards. We believe that it would be a simple adjustment to introduce this supplementary grant on the same basis.
The hon. Member for Cathcart is a wonderful man for spraying out figures. He suggested that, in Aberdeen, on an assumption of 80 per cent. of the average community charge for Scotland, students would be better off by £15.
978 I must tell him that they would be required to pay £15 rather than having that amount in pocket. He said, generally, that students in Edinburgh would pay £100. As an Edinburgh Member, I have an interest in ensuring that he gets that figure correct. It would in fact be £58—about half the figure that he suggested.
As for the scheme itself—I tried to make this clear in Committee and, in an attempt not to detain the House tonight, I did not go into as much detail—the idea is that the sum which will be made available through the student awards system will be based on the average personal community charge in Scotland each year. That is the principle which I enunciated in Committee. The proportion of that average which will be covered is likely to be in line with that which will be proposed for the rebate system that we shall debate tomorrow. Of course, there are details to be worked out before we introduce the scheme, but those are its general principles. Generally, they have been welcomed by students in Scotland, who were worried that they might have to pay the entire community charge.
§ Mr. DouglasThe Under-Secretary of State accused my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) of spraying figures, but he has been spraying round spurious exactitudes. He has given us an idea of what students in Aberdeen and Edinburgh might pay. Can he give us some feel of the global sum that the Department of Education and Science might be asked to pay if the provision is made statutory? Will it be £2 million, £3 million, £4 million or what?
§ Mr. AncramAs the hon. Gentleman is anxious to have that figure, I can tell him that the figures I used in Committee and that I am using tonight are based on the assumptions that community charge levels will be based on current levels of expenditure. We must accept that we must make those assumptions because we do not know what the levels of expenditure will be in two years' time. If the hon. Gentleman is interested in having a global figure, I can get it for him and if he wishes, I shall write to him. But it will be based, not on an exact prediction of what the situation will be in two years' time but on various assumptions relating to current levels of expenditure.
§ Mr. HendersonDoes my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) was wrong to think that there was any serious danger of English students not coming to Scottish universities because of this, given the scale of commitment that a student is making in coming to any university and that the benefits that he will gain from coming to a Scottish university far outweigh any matters of that sort?
§ Mr. AncramI am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding me of that point. It is a strange point to raise especially when, given the statements made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, there will be a system of community charges in England soon after that has been started in Scotland. The question of cross-border disincentives will soon disappear.
I have a great deal of confidence in Scottish university education, having been educated at universities in England and Scotland. The quality of education provided by Scottish universities is a sufficient attraction to ensure a good, steady number of recruits in the years to come. If the hon. Gentleman will not seek to withdraw the amendment, I ask my hon. Friends to resist it.
§ Question put:—
979§ The House divided:Ayes 170, Noes 216.
982| Division No. 109] | [10.41 pm |
| AYES | |
| Anderson, Donald | Hardy, Peter |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Ashdown, Paddy | Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Haynes, Frank |
| Ashton, Joe | Healey, Rt Hon Denis |
| Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Hogg, N.(C'nauld & Kilsyth) |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall) |
| Barron, Kevin | Home Robertson, John |
| Beckett, Mrs Margaret | Howarth, George (Knowsley, N) |
| Beith, A. J. | Howells, Geraint |
| Bell, Stuart | Hughes, Roy (Newport East) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Hughes, Simon (Southwark) |
| Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) | Janner, Hon Greville |
| Bermmgham, Gerald | Johnston, Sir Russell |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) |
| Blair, Anthony | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Kennedy, Charles |
| Boyes, Roland | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Lambie, David |
| Brown, Gordon (D'f'mlme E) | Lamond, James |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) | Leighton, Ronald |
| Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N) | Lewis, Terence (Worsley) |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Litherland, Robert |
| Buchan, Norman | Livsey, Richard |
| Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Canavan, Dennis | Loyden, Edward |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y) | Maclennan, Robert |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | McNamara, Kevin |
| Clay, Robert | McWilliam, John |
| Clelland, David Gordon | Madden, Max |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Marek, Dr John |
| Coleman, Donald | Martin, Michael |
| Conlan, Bernard | Mason, Rt Hon Roy |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton North) | Maxton, John |
| Cook, Robin F. (Livingston) | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Corbett, Robin | Meacher, Michael |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Mikardo, Ian |
| Craigen, J. M. | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) | Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) | Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) |
| Deakins, Eric | Morns, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Dewar, Donald | Nellist, David |
| Dixon, Donald | Oakes Rt Hon Gordon |
| Dobson, Frank | O'Brien, William |
| Dormand, Jack | O'Neill, Martin |
| Douglas, Dick | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Dubs, Alfred | Park, George |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Parry, Robert |
| Eadie, Alex | Patchett, Terry |
| Eastham, Ken | Pike, Peter |
| Evans, John (St. Helens N) | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Fatchett, Derek | Randall, Stuart |
| Faulds, Andrew | Raynsford, Nick |
| Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | Redmond, Martin |
| Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) | Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S) |
| Fisher, Mark | Richardson, Ms Jo |
| Flannery, Martin | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) |
| Forrester, John | Robertson, George |
| Foster, Derek | Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) |
| Foulkes, George | Rooker, J. W. |
| Fraser, J. (Norwood) | Ross, Ernest (Dundee W) |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Rowlands, Ted |
| Freud, Clement | Sheerman, Barry |
| George, Bruce | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Shields, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Godman, Dr Norman | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) |
| Hamilton, James (M'well N) | Short, Mrs R. (W'hampt'n NE) |
| Hamilton, W. W. (Fife Central) | Silkin, Rt Hon J. |
| Skinner, Dennis | Warded, Gareth (Gower) |
| Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'ds E) | Wareing, Robert |
| Snape, Peter | Weetch, Ken |
| Soley, Clive | Welsh, Michael |
| Spearing, Nigel | White, James |
| Stott, Roger | Williams, Rt Hon A. |
| Straw, Jack | Wilson, Gordon |
| Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) | Winnick, David |
| Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen) | Woodall, Alec |
| Thompson, J. (Wansbeck) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Thorne, Stan (Preston) | |
| Tinn, James | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Torney, Tom | Mr. Allen McKay and |
| Wallace, James | Mr. Chris Smith. |
| NOES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Hawksley, Warren |
| Ancram, Michael | Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney |
| Ashby, David | Hayward, Robert |
| Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Heddle, John |
| Baldry, Tony | Henderson, Barry |
| Best, Keith | Hickmet, Richard |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Hind, Kenneth |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hirst, Michael |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard | Holt, Richard |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Howard, Michael |
| Budgen, Nick | Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford) |
| Carlisle, John (Luton N) | Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N) |
| Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (W'ton S) | Hubbard-Miles, Peter |
| Carttiss, Michael | Jackson, Robert |
| Churchill, W. S. | Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Jessel, Toby |
| Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Colvin, Michael | Jones, Robert (Herts W) |
| Conway, Derek | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Cope, John | Kershaw, Sir Anthony |
| Crouch, David | Key, Robert |
| Dicks, Terry | King, Roger (B'ham N'field) |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Knight, Greg (Derby N) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | Knowles, Michael |
| Durant, Tony | Knox, David |
| Evennett, David | Lamont, Rt Hon Norman |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Lang, Ian |
| Farr, Sir John | Lawler, Geoffrey |
| Favell, Anthony | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Fletcher, Sir Alexander | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Forman, Nigel | Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Forth, Eric | Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd) |
| Fox, Sir Marcus | Lightbown, David |
| Franks, Cecil | Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) |
| Fraser, Peter (Angus East) | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Freeman, Roger | Lord, Michael |
| Fry, Peter | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Gale, Roger | McCrindle, Robert |
| Galley, Roy | McCurley, Mrs Anna |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde) | MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Maclean, David John |
| Goodlad, Alastair | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Gow, Ian | McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) |
| Grant, Sir Anthony | Madel, David |
| Greenway, Harry | Major, John |
| Gregory, Conal | Malins, Humfrey |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) | Marland, Paul |
| Ground, Patrick | Marlow, Antony |
| Grylls, Michael | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Gummer, Rt Hon John S | Mates, Michael |
| Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) | Mather, Sir Carol |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Hannam, John | Merchant, Piers |
| Hargreaves, Kenneth | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Harvey, Robert | Mills, Iain (Meriden) |
| Hawkins, Sir Paul (N'folk SW) | Moate, Roger |
| Monro, Sir Hector | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Morris, M. (N'hampton S) | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Moynihan, Hon C. | Ridsdale, Sir Julian |
| Murphy, Christopher | Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm |
| Neale, Gerrard | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Needham, Richard | Robinson, Mark (N'port W) |
| Nelson, Anthony | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Rost, Peter |
| Norris, Steven | Rowe, Andrew |
| Osborn, Sir John | Rumbold, Mrs Angela |
| Ottaway, Richard | Ryder, Richard |
| Page, Sir John (Harrow W) | Sackville, Hon Thomas |
| Page, Richard (Herts SW) | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Pawsey, James | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Pollock, Alexander | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Portillo, Michael | Silvester, Fred |
| Powley, John | Sims, Roger |
| Price, Sir David | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Proctor, K. Harvey | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Soames, Hon Nicholas |
| Rathbone, Tim | Speed, Keith |
| Renton, Tim | Spencer, Derek |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) | Walker, Bill (T'side N) |
| Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) | Waller, Gary |
| Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) | Ward, John |
| Stewart, Ian (Hertf'dshire N) | Wardle, C. (Bexhill) |
| Sumberg, David | Watts, John |
| Taylor, John (Solihull) | Wells, Bowen (Hertford) |
| Temple-Morris, Peter | Wells, Sir John (Maidstone) |
| Terlezki, Stefan | Whitfield, John |
| Thomas, Rt Hon Peter | Whitney, Raymond |
| Thompson, Donald (Calder V) | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) | Wilkinson, John |
| Thornton, Malcolm | Winterton, Mrs Ann |
| Thurnham, Peter | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Townend, John (Bridlington) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Trippier, David | Wood, Timothy |
| Trotter, Neville | Yeo, Tim |
| Twinn, Dr Ian | |
| van Straubenzee, Sir W. | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Vaughan, Sir Gerard | Mr. Michael Neubert and |
| Waddington, Rt Hon David | Mr. Gerald Malone. |