§ 11. Dr. Moonieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has now revised his Department's estimate of the share of the cost of meeting the recent National Health Service pay awards payable by health boards out of their current allocation; and if he will make a statement.
§ Mr. Michael ForsythNo. The additional £35 million made available by the Government on top of the original provision of £1,545 million for the hospital and community health programme will result in a total increase in provision this year of 8.4 per cent. In addition, efficiency measures should direct the equivalent of 1.5 per cent. of revenue allocations into direct patient care. This will allow boards to meet increased costs and to develop services.
§ Dr. MoonieThe Minister's reply is disingenuous, to say the least. I am fully aware that, for at least one health board, the gap between the Scottish Office's estimate of what will have to be met out of current allocation and the reality is £250,000. Where is the health board supposed to find that money?
§ Mr. ForsythThe difference between the £35 million made available and the costs are based on estimates provided by the boards——
§ Dr. MoonieThey are wrong.
§ Mr. ForsythWell, they may be wrong, but they were provided by the boards themselves. I see no need to revise that estimate or to accept the hon. Gentleman's view that it is wrong. I should have thought that the health boards and, indeed, the hon. Gentleman, would welcome the fact that the Government have made available £35 million extra, as announced in May, on top of what the health boards were expecting in March.
§ Mr. SpeakerI shall take points of order after the statement.
§ Mr. CanavanOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. DouglasOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The House knows that there has been a rule about this matter for some time now.
§ Mr. DouglasOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. CanavanOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. CanavanI spy Strangers.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. CanavanIf you will not take my point of order, Sir, I spy Strangers.
§ Mr. SpeakerI will not take the hon. Gentleman's point of order.
§ Mr. CanavanI spy Strangers.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. CanavanI spy Strangers, and they are all on the Conservative Benches, and they were in here for Scottish questions.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I must say to the hon. Gentleman that this takes time out of the debate.
§ Mr. CanavanI spy Strangers.
§ Notice being taken that Strangers were present, MR. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 143 ( Withdrawal of strangers from House), put forthwith the Question, That Strangers do withdraw:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 41, Noes 161.
370| Division No. 27] | [3.35 pm |
| AYES | |
| Bermingham, Gerald | McKelvey, William |
| Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley) | McLeish, Henry |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Mahon, Mrs Alice |
| Clay, Bob | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Martlew, Eric |
| Cryer, Bob | Meale, Alan |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Michael, Alun |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
| Dunnachie, James | Mowlam, Mrs Marjorie |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | Parry, Robert |
| Faulds, Andrew | Patchett, Terry |
| Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n) | Salmond, Alex |
| Fyfe, Mrs Maria | Sheerman, Barry |
| Galloway, George | Thomas, Dafydd Elis |
| Graham, Thomas | Turner, Dennis |
| Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Worthington, Anthony |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Wray, James |
| Lambie, David | |
| McAllion, John | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| McCartney, Ian | Mr. Dennis Canavan and |
| Macdonald, Calum | Mr. Bob McTaggart. |
| McFall, John |
| NOES | |
| Adley, Robert | Fox, Sir Marcus |
| Alexander, Richard | Fry, Peter |
| Arbuthnot, James | Gale, Roger |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Gardiner, George |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Batiste, Spencer | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Gow, Ian |
| Body, Sir Richard | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Greenway, John (Rydale) |
| Boswell, Tim | Gregory, Conal |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick | Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr') |
| Burns, Simon | Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) |
| Burt, Alistair | Harris, David |
| Butler, Chris | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Butterfill, John | Hayes, Jerry |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | Hayward, Robert |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Heddle, John |
| Carrington, Matthew | Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) |
| Carttiss, Michael | Hill, James |
| Cash, William | Hind, Kenneth |
| Chapman, Sydney | Holt, Richard |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) | Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) |
| Curry, David | Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) |
| Day, Stephen | Hunt, David (Wirral W) |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Hunter, Andrew |
| Durant, Tony | Irvine, Michael |
| Dykes, Hugh | Jack, Michael |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Fallon, Michael | Key, Robert |
| Favell, Tony | King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) |
| Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey | Knapman, Roger |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Knowles, Michael |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Lang, Ian |
| Forth, Eric | Latham, Michael |
| Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) | Ryder, Richard |
| Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) | Sackville, Hon Tom |
| Lord, Michael | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| Maclean, David | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Mans, Keith | Sims, Roger |
| Maples, John | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Marland, Paul | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Speed, Keith |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Speller, Tony |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Steen, Anthony |
| Maude, Hon Francis | Stern, Michael |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Stevens, Lewis |
| Mills, Iain | Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) |
| Monro, Sir Hector | Stradling Thomas, Sir John |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Moore, Rt Hon John | Taylor, John M (Solihull) |
| Morris, M (N'hampton S) | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Moss, Malcolm | Thorne, Neil |
| Neale, Gerrard | Thurnham, Peter |
| Neubert, Michael | Tredinnick, David |
| Onslow, Cranley | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Page, Richard | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Paice, James | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Patnick, Irvine | Walker, Bill (T'side North) |
| Pawsey, James | Waller, Gary |
| Porter, Barry (Wirral S) | Walters, Dennis |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Portillo, Michael | Watts, John |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Whitney, Ray |
| Price, Sir David | Widdecombe, Miss Ann |
| Redwood, John | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Yeo, Tim |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Riddick, Graham | |
| Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Rost, Peter | Mr. David Lightbown and |
| Rumbold, Mrs Angela | Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.