Points of Order (Hansard, 15 July 1987)

§ Mr. Keith Raffan (Delyn)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek your guidance in a most serious matter. At the opening of this morning's proceedings in the Welsh Grand Committee, the Chairman, the hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Coleman), formally announced that during this Parliament he would call hon. Members to speak in proportion to party strengths on the Committee. That appears to be in contravention of "Erskine May", which states in respect of the Chamber that you, Mr. Speaker, will generally call Back-Bench Members alternately from either side of the House. The statement by the hon. Member for Neath clearly has the most serious constitutional implications for the House and, indeed, for the country as a whole. I would be grateful, Mr. Speaker, if you could give a ruling, as the Welsh Grand Committee will sit again in a minute's time.

§ Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Delyn (Mr. Raffan) is intentionally misleading the House. I was present this morning in the Welsh Grand Committee when the Chairman said that he would bear in mind the fact that there were very few Welsh Conservative Members of Parliament, that there are even fewer Scottish Conservative Members of Parliament and that the Labour side of the Welsh Grand Committee is heavily stocked. The Chairman certainly did not say that he would act in accordance with the direct proportion of Members of Parliament; he said that he would bear in mind the wishes of the people of Wales.

Several Hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
This is a matter I can deal with now. Now that I have heard the point of order put from both sides, I can say to both hon. Members and to other hon. Members who may wish to speak on this that it is not a matter for me. I have no jurisdication over the Chairmen of Standing Committees. A number of Chairmen of Standing Committee are in the Chamber this afternoon, and they know that they are responsible in Standing Committee for their actions. There is no appeal to me.

§ Mr. Rogers
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
It cannot be further to that point of order, because there is no appeal to me.

§ Mr. Michael Fallon (Darlington)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Because of the ruling that has been reported to us, are there not implications for the line that you will take in this Chamber? Had this ruling been followed in the last Parliament, when there were 200 Opposition Members and 400 Conservative Members, is it not a fact that at least half the Opposition speeches need not have been made?

§ Mr. Speaker
I do not know what was said in the Welsh Grand Committee. On both sides, or at least on one side of the House, there seems to be a misunderstanding whether it was a definite statement. However, in this Chamber. I intend to carry on with the selection of speakers as I have in the past. Hon. Members know that at Question Time I have to bear in mind the weight of Members on either side of the House, as well as minority interests and many other considerations.

§ Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek your guidance about common courtesy. Did the hon. Member for Delyn (Mr. Raffan), who raised this matter in the first place, have the courtesy to inform the Chairman of the Welsh Grand Committee that he intended to raise the matter on the Floor of the House?

§ Mr. Raffan
I did.

§ Mr. Rowlands
When?

§ Mr. Raffan
I informed him at lunchtime.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. This matter must not be discussed across the Floor of the House.
I cannot take points of order on what happened in a Standing Committee. I can take points of order only on issues that arise in this Chamber.

§ Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. It has to do with this Chamber. I speak as somebody who is desperately concerned about United Kingdom interests. I have a Welsh wife and a son who is in a Scottish regiment. The Library has kindly provided me with information in which both you and the House will be very interested: that in England there are 358 Conservative Members of Parliament, only 155 Labour Members of Parliament and a mere seven Liberal Members of Parliament. For every three English Labour Members there are seven English Conservative Members. It will be interesting to watch what happens in Committee. If there were to be changes in Committee in terms of party weight, this Chamber would be very interested, because it might have some lessons to learn. I should not like there to be a move in that direction, for the reasons that I have already given.

§ Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South)
On a separate point of order, Mr. Speaker. At one time, it was the custom for the Speaker to call on private notice questions and statements every hon. Member who happened to be standing. I understand your dilemma. However, you will recall that during the private notice question about the scattering of radioactive waste a number of Conservative Members were shouting down Opposition Members. It would be outrageous if—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I was watching as well as listening. I do not think that the hon. Member can allege that the shouting came from only one side.

§ Mr. Cryer
But it was mainly from the Conservative side. My point is that, in order to achieve the balance that we seek to maintain, it would be quite wrong if a handful of Conservatives asked a few pat questions of a Minister and then sat down, leaving perhaps half a dozen or a dozen Opposition Members without a chance to speak on a matter that we consider to be of paramount importance, even though sycophantic Conservative Members who wish to suck up to the Minister seek to diminish its importance. The essence of democracy is accountability and the essence of the Opposition's task is to ensure that the Government are accountable. In seeking to ensure that accountability, it is important that searching Opposition questions should be allowed to the full, rather than that they should be determined by a group of bootboys and sycophants.

Several Hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I shall take one point of order at a time. The hon. Gentleman has only recently returned to 1144 this House. To my knowledge it has never been the practice of the Chair to hear every hon. Member who wishes to speak on a private notice question. That would leave us with hardly any time for the rest of the day's business. Today I gave rather longer than I normally give for private notice questions, which are an extension of Question Time. Normally I allow not more than 15 minutes. Today, however, because of the interest in this matter, I allowed supplementary questions to continue for over 20 minutes.
Before we proceed with the points of order, I should point out that there is important business ahead of us and that the House is likely to sit late into the night. If there are any genuine points of order that relate to matters that have taken place in this Chamber, I shall deal with them. I call next a member of the Chairmen's Panel.

§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield)
May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to consider what has been said in the Chamber this afternoon. I accept your ruling that you can be concerned only with what has occurred in this Chamber, but what occurs in the House as a whole clearly reflects also on this House, and you hold a very important position in the House. Would you be prepared to consider what has been said in a Committee of this House and to come back to this place on a future day to advise the House about what you believe has occurred and whether it is right?
If what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr. Raffan) actually occurred today in the Welsh Grand Committee, it must reflect on the procedures and the practice of this House. As I am a member of the Chairmen's Panel, which is a privileged position, I feel that it is important that you should give your ruling—I am sure that the country as a whole would value it—on this issue.

§ Mr. Speaker
I am pleased to give it. If the hon. Member will look at page 672 of "Erskine May" he will see that it says: No appeal can be made to the Speaker regarding the decisions or rulings of the chairman of a Standing Committee.

§ Mr. Tony Favell (Stockport)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Many hon. Members thought that the last Parliament was exceptional, in that there were twice as many English Conservative Members of Parliament as there were English Labour Members of Parliament. It is all very well to refer to party political interests, but what about constituency interests? Has it occurred to you that a constituency has twice as much of a chance to be represented if it has a Labour Member of Parliament as if it has a Conservative Member of Parliament? Is that fair? Should we not be considering constituency interests rather than party political interests, since the electorate has already given its decision as to how it wants to be represented in this House?

§ Mr. Speaker
That might be an argument for what is alleged to have happened in the Welsh Grand Committee. These are very difficult matters for both the Speaker and the Chairman of every Committee. I have already said that I have no jurisdiction over what happens in Committee, but in this Chamber I shall hear those points carefully in mind.