HC Deb 07 July 1987 vol 119 cc181-4
6. Mr. Nicholas Brown

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on his policy on education charges in schools.

7. Mr. Janner

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received about payments by parents in relation to the education of their children in state schools.

Mr. Kenneth Baker

A number of parents, local education authorities, and the local authority associations have asked my Department for clarification of the present law. It is important to proceed in a way which will not threaten the principle of free education, but will preserve the valued provision made possible only by authorities' current charging practices. I shall be consulting in due course on how this might best be achieved.

Mr. Brown

How will the Government's declared aim of achieving freedom of choice be realised if pupils are debarred from undertaking courses because they cannot afford the cost?

Mr. Baker

I ask the hon. Member, who follows these matters, and followed them closely during the election, to bear in mind that many authorities—by no means Conservative authorities—and his own authority make some charge, as I understand it, for accommodation on field study trips. I emphasise the fact and assure him that it is no part of the Government's policy to impose charges. In consultation with local government, we want to preserve its freedom to continue with long-standing practice.

Mr. Janner

Does the Minister understand that local authorities are forced into imposing charges when the Government do not provide basic essential education resources and that it is a travesty and a disgrace, especially for disadvantaged schools and areas, that parents should have to pay for books, sports, visits, music and for what well-off people regard as normal essentials of education? That is the great divide that the Government are forcing upon our school system.

Mr. Baker

The hon. and learned Gentleman should appreciate that the issue first arose as soon as the Education Act 1944 was on the statute book. The first circular on charging was issued then to try to clarify what were extra curriculum charges. This has not cropped up in the past two or three years. In fact, the practice of charging for certain extras has been established between many authorities for 20 or 30 years.

Mr. Pawsey

On the broader matter of charges and costs, will my right hon. Friend tell the House whether he has any proposals to transfer costs, particularly teacher salaries, from LEAs to the Exchequer?

Mr. Baker

I see massive difficulties in moving the cost of all or a substantial part of local education authorities' expenditure to my Department. If, for example, the amount of teachers' salaries, which local authorities provide, were moved to my Department, it would be at a cost of about £3.9 billion. It would certainly totally distort the relationships between central and local government and education. That money would have to be found from the national Exchequer. That amount of money roughly represents 3p on income tax or 3.5 per cent. on VAT.

Mr. Harry Greenway

Is my right hon. Friend aware that for years pupils have paid for activities which many times they have initiated, such as field trips and the rest, but that all schools have always covered children who, for any reason at all, were unable to pay? The problem was that charging fees was illegal, and many excellent activities that were suggested by staff and children could not take place. My right hon. Friend's Bill will put that right.

Mr. Baker

I confirm what my hon. Friend has said. These are long-established practices and in some cases go back to the 1944 Act. I assure the House that in no way will I lay down a compulsory national system for charges.

Mr. Ashdown

Will the Minister say what steps he will take to impose controls on charging in opted-out centrally controlled schools to ensure that the practice of charging does not develop into de facto fee paying which some parents cannot afford?

Mr. Baker

I want to make it clear, as I have made it clear several times recently, that the grant-maintained schools will not be allowed to charge fees. As a result of the consultation process on charges which I shall launch, the grant-maintained schools will have to abide by the general principles laid down for the state-maintained schools.

Mr. Forman

To put this matter in perspective, can my right hon. Friend say what proportion of existing schools' expenditure is now met from charging and by how much he estimates this might go up under his proposal?

Mr. Baker

I cannot give the precise figure, but I shall seek it out and either reply in answer to a question or write to my hon. Friend. In our first discussions with local authorities we have discovered that there is a wide variety of practice between authorities and depends on the political complexion of the authorities. It appears that in one way or another all authorities charge for some extra activities. As I have said, we want to be guided to ensure that their freedom to continue with long-standing practice is preserved.

Mr. Leadbitter

Will the Secretary of State consider his previous statement to the effect that he is seeking discussions with local authorities so that they will be free to continue their long-standing practice? If he does not have other charges in mind, and if there has been a longstanding practice, what will the discussions be about?

Mr. Baker

The long-standing practice has been questioned legally in terms of whether certain charges can or cannot he made. I am responding to requests from local authorities and from local authority associations to clarify the position.

Mr. Key

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the only universally unfair charges in education relate to school transport? Will he ensure that this is tackled in his new Bill, especially with regard to rural areas, so that the schools themselves, when they assume more financial responsibility, can be responsible for their own community bus services and mini-bus services?

Mr. Baker

This issue will be covered in the consultative document that I hope to issue next week on local financial management and the delegation of school budgets. The way that school transport is managed in future presents quite difficult problems.

Mr. Radice

Can the Secretary of State tell the House how his proposals to enable local authorities to charge for essentials such as music, sport and field trips are compatible with the commitment of the 1944 Act to free education? In this connection, has he noted the warnings by his right hon. Friend the Member for Shropshire, North (Mr. Biffen), whom we are delighted to welcome to education questions, about the dangers of privatisation? I think that he was referring particularly to parents having to pay for books and basic equipment.

Mr. Baker

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no question of wishing to impose a system of national charges and certainly not for basic equipment. The standard of music in schools has never been higher and we are helping to sponsor, for example, a national choral competition next week at the Festival Hall. The success of choirs, school orchestras and individual performers derives from the existing practices of local authorities. I want to ensure that no damage is done and I assure hon. Members that I shall do everything to maintain this honourable tradition. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman mentioned the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Shropshire, North (Mr. Biffen). It was a most distinguished speech, in which he said that the Government's education proposals are in the long tradition of Tory social policy.

Mr. Latham

Following his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key), will my right hon. Friend give a clear commitment on charges for school transport? Is he aware that the present system militates against the Conservative policy of choice by denying to rural parents the opportunity to exercise that choice?

Mr. Baker

School transport is again largely at the discretion of local authorities—apart from certain national mandatory standards that they have to meet. As I said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key), this is a most complicated matter and we shall consult widely about it with local authorities.