§ Amendment proposed: No. 189, in page 12, line 8, leave out '1.025' and insert '1.04.'.—[Mr. Galley.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 166, Noes 232.
146| Division No. 73] | [11.45 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abse, Leo | Corbett, Robin |
| Adams, Allen (Paisley N) | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Alton, David | Craigen, J. M. |
| Anderson, Donald | Crowther, Stan |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Cunlitfe, Lawrence |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Cunningham, Dr John |
| Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) | Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Deakins, Eric |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Dewar, Donald |
| Barron, Kevin | Dixon, Donald |
| Beckett, Mrs Margaret | Dobson, Frank |
| Bell, Stuart | Dormand, Jack |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Dubs, Alfred |
| Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) | Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Eadie, Alex |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Eastham, Ken |
| Blair, Anthony | Evans, John (St. Helens N) |
| Boyes, Roland | Faulds, Andrew |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E) | Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Fisher, Mark |
| Buchan, Norman | Flannery, Martin |
| Caborn, Richard | Foot, Rt Hon Michael |
| Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) | Forrester, John |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Foster, Derek |
| Canavan, Dennis | Foulkes, George |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Fraser, J. (Norwood) |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Freud, Clement |
| Clarke, Thomas | George, Bruce |
| Clay, Robert | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Clelland, David Gordon | Godman, Dr Norman |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S) | Gould, Bryan |
| Cohen, Harry | Hamilton, James (M'well N) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Hamilton, W. W. (Fife Central) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton North) | Hancock, Michael |
| Cook, Robin F. (Livingston) | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Haynes, Frank | Pendry, Tom |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Pike, Peter |
| Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall) | Prescott, John |
| Home Robertson, John | Radice, Giles |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley, N) | Randall, Stuart |
| Hoyle, Douglas | Raynsford, Nick |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Redmond, Martin |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport East) | Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S) |
| Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) | Richardson, Ms Jo |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| Janner, Hon Greville | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) |
| John, Brynmor | Robertson, George |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) | Rooker, J. W. |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Ross, Ernest (Dundee W) |
| Lambie, David | Rowlands, Ted |
| Lamond, James | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Sheerman, Barry |
| Leighton, Ronald | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| Lewis, Terence (Worsley) | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Litherland, Robert | Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE) |
| Lofthouse, Geoffrey | Silkin, Rt Hon J. |
| Loyden, Edward | Skinner, Dennis |
| McCartney, Hugh | Smith, C.(lsl'ton S & F'bury) |
| McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'ds E) |
| McKay, Allen (Penistone) | Snape, Peter |
| McNamara, Kevin | Soley, Clive |
| McTaggart, Robert | Spearing, Nigel |
| McWilliam, John | Stott, Roger |
| Madden, Max | Straw, Jack |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Martin, Michael | Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen) |
| Maxton, John | Thompson, J. (Wansbeck) |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Thorne, Stan (Preston) |
| Meacher, Michael | Tinn, James |
| Meadowcroft, Michael | Warden, Gareth (Gower) |
| Michie, William | Wareing, Robert |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Weetch, Ken |
| Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) | Welsh, Michael |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) | White, James |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Williams, Rt Hon A. |
| Nellist, David | Winnick, David |
| Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| O'Brien, William | |
| O'Neill, Martin | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Park, George | Mr. Ron Davies and |
| Patchett, Terry | Mr. Derek Fatchett. |
| NOES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Browne, John |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Bruinvels, Peter |
| Amess, David | Buck, Sir Antony |
| Ancram, Michael | Budgen, Nick |
| Arnold, Tom | Bulmer, Esmond |
| Ashby, David | Burt, Alistair |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) | Butcher, John |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Butterfill, John |
| Batiste, Spencer | Carlisle, John (Luton N) |
| Bellingham, Henry | Carttiss, Michael |
| Bendall, Vivian | Cash, William |
| Benyon, William | Chapman, Sydney |
| Best, Keith | Chope, Christopher |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Churchill, W. S. |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) |
| Blackburn, John | Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) |
| Body, Sir Richard | Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Cockeram, Eric |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Colvin, Michael |
| Bottomley, Peter | Conway, Derek |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Coombs, Simon |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n) | Cope, John |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Couchman, James |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Cranborne, Viscount |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Crouch, David |
| Bright, Graham | Currie, Mrs Edwina |
| Brinton, Tim | Dickens, Geoffrey |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Dicks, Terry |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. |
| Dover, Den | Newton, Tony |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Dunn, Robert | Onslow, Cranley |
| Durant, Tony | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Dykes, Hugh | Ottaway, Richard |
| Eggar, Tim | Page, Richard (Herts SW) |
| Evennett, David | Patten, Christopher (Bath) |
| Eyre, Sir Reginald | Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abgdn) |
| Favell, Anthony | Pawsey, James |
| Forman, Nigel | Pollock, Alexander |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Forth, Eric | Powley, John |
| Fox, Sir Marcus | Price, Sir David |
| Franks, Cecil | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Raffan, Keith |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Gow, Ian | Rathbone, Tim |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Rhodes James, Robert |
| Griffiths, Sir Eldon | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Hannam, John | Ridsdale, Sir Julian |
| Harris, David | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Robinson, Mark (N'port W) |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) | Rost, Peter |
| Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A) | Rowe, Andrew |
| Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) | Rumbold, Mrs Angela |
| Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N) | Ryder, Richard |
| Jackson, Robert | Sackville, Hon Thomas |
| Knowles, Michael | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Knox, David | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Lamont, Rt Hon Norman | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Latham, Michael | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Lawler, Geoffrey | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Shersby, Michael |
| Lester, Jim | Silvester, Fred |
| Lightbown, David | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Lilley, Peter | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) | Speed, Keith |
| Lord, Michael | Speller, Tony |
| Luce, Rt Hon Richard | Spencer, Derek |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Spicer, Jim (Dorset W) |
| McCrindle, Robert | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| McCurley, Mrs Anna | Squire, Robin |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) | Stanley, Rt Hon John |
| MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) | Steen, Anthony |
| Maclennan, Robert | Stern, Michael |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) |
| McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) | Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) |
| McQuarrie, Albert | Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) |
| Madel, David | Stewart, Ian (Hertf'dshire N) |
| Major, John | Stradling Thomas, Sir John |
| Malins, Humfrey | Taylor, John (Solihull) |
| Malone, Gerald | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Maples, John | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Marland, Paul | Terlezki, Stefan |
| Marlow, Antony | Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Mates, Michael | Thompson, Donald (Calder V) |
| Mather, Sir Carol | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Maude, Hon Francis | Thurnham, Peter |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Mayhew, Sir Patrick | Trippier, David |
| Merchant, Piers | Trotter, Neville |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| Mills, lain (Meriden) | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Viggers, Peter |
| Mitchell, David (Hants NW) | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Moate, Roger | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Monro, Sir Hector | Walden, George |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Walker, Bill (T'side N) |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Waller, Gary |
| Moynihan, Hon C. | Ward, John |
| Neale, Gerrard | Wardle, C. (Bexhill) |
| Nelson, Anthony | Warren, Kenneth |
| Neubert, Michael | Watson, John |
| Watts, John | Wood, Timothy |
| Wells, Bowen (Hertford) | Woodcock, Michael |
| Wells, Sir John (Maidstone) | Yeo, Tim |
| Wheeler, John | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Whitfield, John | |
| Whitney, Raymond | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Wiggin, Jerry | Mr. Peter Lloyd and |
| Wolfson, Mark | Mr. Michael Portillo |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Amendment proposed: No. 135, in page 12, line 42, leave out '19th' and insert `20th'.—[Dr. Boyson.]
§ Mr. John FraserWe would like some explanation as to why a Sunday has been substituted for a Saturday. The suspicion is that the Bill was published on 18 December and that one or two Tory authorities may have been helped by switching the date for the notification of information from a Saturday to a Sunday. We would be interested to know about those authorities which can manage to get some information to an unmanned Marsham street on a Sunday rather than a Saturday.
§ Dr. BoysonWe felt that the Bill was so important that we should give it the holiness of a Sunday being built into it. The better the day, the better the deed. The basis of the Bill is that local authorities should know what rates they will have to fix for 1 April. If the Bill were not enacted, we could not give rate support grant to local authorities for 1 April and that would cause uproar the length and breadth of Britain, including all Labour authorities. The rate-capped authorities now know that there can be no change. Similarly, other authorities will know what their grant should be so that they can fix their rate. Just as the good Lord rested on a Sunday, we too shall rest having done this for the good of local government through the length and breadth of Britain.
§ Mr. FraserWe thought that it was only the chief constable of Manchester who had a message from the good Lord. We now realise that such is the state of the Department of the Environment that it has to rely upon not just temporal but divine inspiration to put together its legislation. But we do not regard that explanation as adequate. We want to know which authorities would be disadvantaged as a result of having Saturday 19 December in the Bill rather than Sunday 20 December. It is not enough simply to tell us that a kind of religious quality is now being imparted into local government legislation. That is too flippant an explanation. We want to know who gains by having Sunday instead of Saturday.
§ Dr. BoysonWhen a tram first brought me to the House in 1961 there were three or four postal deliveries on a Saturday. I remember my amazement when, returning home with my children to Chingford in Essex, the area to which I had moved at that time, having been boating with them, I found that at five o'clock that afternoon there was a postal delivery. Now, if I get my post at some time on a Saturday morning I have to be grateful for it. The postmen are very nice when they come, but the deliveries are not reliable.
However, I can put the mind of the House and of the hon. Gentleman at rest, because one thing that we do know is that there is no postal delivery on a Sunday and, as far as I know, neither the Secretary of State nor I was in the Department of the Environment on that day. Nobody communicated with us on that day. If the hon. 147 Gentleman thinks that there was some subterranean advantage in doing this, it just shows how suspicious he is.
The message that we must get to the country is that just as the date is a Sunday, not a Saturday, the guillotine will fall on a Monday at 12 pm and a cheer will go up the length and breadth of the country. As we pass the Bill to another place, local authorities will know where they stand on their rates and rate capping for this year with all certainty.
§ Mr. FraserThat load of blather will not do. The Minister was asked why there was a change from a Saturday to a Sunday. We simply do not believe that kind of explanation. There must be some reason, some authority, perhaps some little favourite of the Department or the Welsh Office—
§ It being Twelve O'clock, THE FIRST DEPUTY CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order this day, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ THE FIRST DEPUTY CHAIRMAN then proceeded successively to put forthwith the Questions necessary to bring the proceedings in Committee to a conclusion.
§ Amendments made: No. 137, in page 12, line 47, leave out '19th' and insert '20th'.
No. 139, in page 13, line 9, leave out second 'the' and insert 'an'
No. 140, in page 13, line 10, after 'charges', insert
', or by way of provision for pay and price changes, or on school meals and milk,'.—[Mr. Neubert.]
Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.