HC Deb 20 January 1987 vol 108 cc725-7
5. Mr. Dubs

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he last met the National Union of Students to discuss the level of student financial support.

12. Mr. Tony Lloyd

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he last met the National Union of Students to discuss student financial support.

Mr. Kenneth Baker

I met representatives of the National Union of Students on 30 September 1986, when we discussed a range of issues, including financial support for students. In addition, my officials met representatives of the National Union of Students on 21 November 1986 to discuss the subject.

Mr. Dubs

Would the Secretary of State care to comment on the recent report by the Select Committee on Education, Science and Arts, which concluded that there was appreciable hardship for many students and that there was an urgent need to increase the level of student awards? Does he agree that many students find life extremely difficult and financially hard and that there is an urgent need to implement the Select Committee's recommendations?

Mr. Baker

I recognise that there has been a cut in the real value of student awards of about 11 per cent. since the Government came to office. First, I set up the review of student support under the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden). He is in America today, looking at various methods of student support. That will be taken into account. Secondly, the reduction in the real value of student grants has not prevented a record increase of 140,000 students since we have been in office.

Mr. Lloyd

The Secretary of State seems to ignore the fact that the Select Committee's report unanimously condemned the hardship caused to students by the Government. Surely the right hon. Gentleman should tell the House what he intends to do about that. In reality, we already have the introduction of student loans by stealth. There is a good chance that, in any case, that is what the Secretary of State wants for his election manifesto. If that is so, let him tell the House and the students today.

Mr. Baker

One of the matters that the review of student support will examine is the possibility of loans as top-ups to grants. I refer the hon. Gentleman to an article in The Observer last week, which stated: If grants were topped up with loans we could afford more students, and if repayments were to begin only when someone was earning the national minimum wage, no one need be deterred. While the present ramshackle structure remains in place we are blighting the prospects of a generation of young people and endangering the country's economic future.

Mr. Sims

Whatever my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State decides should be the relative proportion paid towards student maintenance by the state and by parents in the coming academic year, will he ensure that the total figure accurately represents student costs? At the moment it does not do that, as a result of which some students receive the full parental contribution, but it is still insufficient to cover their expenditure.

Mr. Baker

I appreciate my hon. Friend's work on the Select Committee. In any change in the system of student support we must ensure that students from families who are less well off are not deterred from going into higher education. I look upon that as one of the major considerations.

Mr. Forman

When my right hon. Friend met the NUS representatives, did they give him any reliable estimate of the number of students who are already dependent on personal loans and overdrafts to help finance their time in higher education? Will my right hon. Friend bear that factor carefully in mind in considering any conclusions at the end of the Walden committee's investigations, because it seems to me that he would be wise to proceed cautiously in the direction of full-blooded loans?

Mr. Baker

I emphasise that the review of student support is examining loans as a possible top up. We start from the proposition that it would be better, if we could, to remove students from the social security system. In the early days of Beveridge it was never considered that students would be part of that whole system. A very careful review is required, and that is taking place.

It is exceedingly difficult to obtain figures of the number of students involved and the size of their overdrafts. I have seen various estimates and I do not give much credence to any of them. The NUS representatives did not tell me the cost of their full proposals. The NUS proposals would cost some £300 million more for straight student grant support, and if extended to all students another £1 billion. I do not know whether that has been accepted by the official Opposition.

Mr. Fatchett

Did the Secretary of State note the paragraph in the Select Committee's report which said that worries about insecurity of finance were undermining the academic work of various students? How does the right hon. Gentleman reconcile that possible drop in standards with his supposed commitment to higher standards?

Mr. Baker

There is no record that there has been a drop in standards in higher education. I have said to the House, and I say again, that there has been a tremendous increase in the number of first-class degrees awarded by polyechnics during the past five years. We can all—not just one party—be proud of that. I do not accept that there has been any drop in quality.

Mr. Bill Walker

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many Scottish students believe that loans are the way forward? [Interruption.] I am president of the Scottish Conservative Students Association. Many Scottish students also recognise that they can earn money during the long holidays, and they receive substantial assistance with housing support.

Mr. Baker

I think that many students who have overdrafts may welcome a form of formal loans, the payment of which is deferred until they are earning at the average wage or above. That point has been put to me by many students in England and, I am glad to say, in Scotland.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett

Will the Secretary of State confirm that, normally, the Government make an announcement about next year's student grant some time in November and that, on two or three occasions, he has kept putting off an announcement? Has this anything to do with the fact that the Government are not absolutely certain whether there will be a June or an October election and are therefore not quite sure whether the student vote will be crucial in many marginal seats?

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that he cannot be waiting for his hon. Friend's inquiry into loans, because its recommendations cannot be implemented in time for this year's grant? Is it not therefore important that the right hon. Gentleman makes an early statement that he will increase student grants by more than the cost of living this year to make up some of the ground lost since the Government came into office in 1979?

Mr. Baker

Decisions on education policy, which I am making and will continue to make, must have a much larger time scale than the date of the next election. I hope to make an announcement shortly on the level of grants for the next academic year.

Mr. Ashdown

In view of the fact as the Secretary of State well knows, that the recommendations of the review of long-term support for students cannot be implemented until 1988–89 and that his officials admitted in evidence to the Select Committee that the maintenance level of the current mandatory award does not meet the full needs of students, will he undertake to correct this situation when considering the mandatory awards for the forthcoming academic year?

Mr. Baker

I replied to that point in answering the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett). I shall be making the statement on the level of student grants very shortly, probably at the beginning of next week.

Mr. Porter

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would appear to be common ground that there has been a reduction in the real value of student support in recent years? Although I appreciate that there must be careful consideration of the type of student support in the future, it seems to me—perhaps my right hon. Friend agrees—that it would be proper, pending the decision, to review and bring up to date the real value of students awards. Would it not be proper also for the electorate to have a decided view before the next election of what the Conservative party means by its support for students?

Mr. Baker

With regard to the latter part of my hon. Friend's question, I hope that the review of student support will be completed this year. I take his initial comments very much to heart and ask him to await my statement next week.