HC Deb 19 January 1987 vol 108 cc585-6
3. Mr. Knox

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how much was spent per pupil in secondary schools in Wales in the most recent year for which figures are available; and what was the comparable figure for 1978–79, at constant figures.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wyn Roberts)

In 1985–86 the amount spent per pupil in secondary schools in Wales was £1,158. The equivalent figure for 1978–79 was £1,002.

Mr. Knox

Does not my hon. Friend's answer make nonsense of Opposition claims of cuts in education expenditure?

Mr. Roberts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In real terms expenditure on education remains broadly constant, while pupil numbers have decreased. Local authority revenue spending on education in Wales, excluding school meals and milk, was slightly higher in 1985–86 than in 1979–80, despite a significant decline in pupil numbers.

Dr. Marek

Is the Minister aware that expenditure on education increased in 1979–80 as a result of decisions taken by the last Labour Administration, and that in the years between 1980–81 and 1984–85 it went down from £694.3 million to £689.3 million at 1984–85 prices? Those figures relate to local authority net expenditure. If the figure has now increased again, does the Minister agree that that is the result of a last-ditch cynical manoeuvre to try to rescue his extremist and do-not-care party from being annihilated in Wales in the next general election?

Mr. Roberts

I do not have the figures that the hon. Gentleman quoted. However, I do have figures for spending on primary and secondary pupils in cash and in cost terms from 1976–77 to 1985–86. To put it briefly, those figures are on the up all the way.

Mr. Raffan

Will my hon. Friend agree to press upon Clwyd county council in particular that it would have far more to spend per secondary school pupil if only it could muster the political will to tackle the county's massive number of surplus places? If those surplus places remain untackled, they will amount to 23,000 by 1989.

Mr. Roberts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is a problem with surplus places in Wales, including Clwyd. We must take hard decisions to eliminate them.

Mr. Barry Jones

The Minister is complacent and self-congratulatory. May I remind him of the chilling and rather disturbing reports by Her Majesty's Inspectorate in Wales over the past five years? The reports show shabby, dilapidated and damp schools. The schools depend upon parent-teacher associations to raise vital money, the equipment is defective and the texbooks dog-eared. Surely the Minister has reason to believe that the inspectorate is pointing to the real situation in Wales. Why has he boosted funds to public schools by over 1,000 per cent., when our state sector goes short?

Mr. Roberts

We are making substantial capital resources available to local authorities in Wales. Since the introduction of the new capital control system in 1981–82, capital allocations have increased substantially. By next year that increase will be 56 per cent. We can make the capital available to local authorities, but we cannot force them to spend it on schools.