HC Deb 19 January 1987 vol 108 cc593-4
30. Mr. Dalyell

asked the right hon. Member for Taunton, answering on behalf of the Public Accounts Commission, what criteria the Commission uses in appointing the Accounting Officer for the National Audit Office.

The Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission (Sir Edward du Cann)

In appointing the serving Comptroller and Auditor General to be Accounting Officer for the National Audit Office Vote with effect from 1 January 1984 the commission followed the long-standing practice of appointing the officer in the best position to discharge overall responsibility for policy and for the resources allocated to the office. The C and AG, is of course, by statute, head of the National Audit Office.

I am sure that the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) will concur with me when I say—I am glad to have the opportunity to make the point—that I believe that the House of Commons and the nation are well served by the Comptroller and Auditor General and his colleagues in accordance with the long-standing tradition of competence of that office.

Mr. Dalyell

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question of which I gave him notice last month? Can he say whether, in appointing the Accounting Officer, his ability to take a grip on the financial control of the security services is taken into account? Is not this matter given added importance by the controversy over electronic surveillance data that has blown up in the past three days? It is one of a number of controversies that make it important that the Public Accounts Committee, on behalf of the House, should have oversight of the security forces and what they do.

Sir Edward du Cann

The duties of the Comptroller and Auditor General in regard to the security services are covered by long-standing arrangements that were endorsed by the Public Accounts Committee. Expenditure on the secret service is accounted for by the Cabinet Office. The Comptroller and Auditor General does not examine the records relating to this expenditure, but, instead, receives personal certificates from the responsible Ministers of the Crown to the effect that the payments were properly made from the secret Vote in the public interest. He then certifies the Appropriation Account to this effect. If there is other expenditure on intelligence and security services that might be borne in other Votes, they will then be subject to full audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

I made inquiries about the hon. Gentleman's second point about the communications project, because I thought it would be of interest to the House. I am told that the matter is still at a preliminary stage and that nothing like the sums that were referred to have been incurred. The House will be aware that the National Audit Office has full access to the Ministry of Defence records. The House will also be aware that arrangements exist under which the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee is kept informed of such cases in which there are large expenditures.

Mr. Skinner

As the Accounting Officer may well come from the area known as the City, will the right hon. Gentleman take into account the fact that the field is scattered with individuals who would be suspect as accounting officers? Will the right hon. Gentleman steer clear of Guinness, Morgan Grenfell and all the other merchant banks that have been involved in swindling the public during the past few weeks?

Sir Edward du Cann

I am sure that it would be the wish of the House that I should make it absolutely clear that not only those of us who are concerned with the affairs of the Commission but the House in general have total confidence in the integrity of the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff.

Mr. Williams

Will the right hon. Gentleman clarify one point? He said a few moments ago that nothing like the sums referred to in the press had been incurred. By that does he mean that they have not been incurred so far, or is he saying that they will not be incurred as the total cost of the project?

Sir Edward du Cann

I am told that the project is at an experimental stage. That is why no large expenditures, or no expenditures on the scale of those mentioned in the newspapers, have yet been incurred.