HC Deb 26 February 1987 vol 111 cc474-6

Lords amendment: No. 10, after clause 3, insert the following new clause: .—(1) Any arrangements for settling for the whole of England and Wales any matter relating to the remuneration and other conditions of employment of teachers in further education, or any description of such teachers, shall be such that every organisation which—

  1. (a) was represented immediately before the passing of this Act on the Burnham Further Education Committee, and
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  2. (b) has members whose conditions of employment may be affected,
is afforded a reasonable opportunity of participating in the process. (2) The 'Burnham Further Education Committee' means the committee set up in pursuance of section 1 of the Remuneration of Teachers Act 1965 to consider the remuneration payable to teachers in further education. (3) It is the duty of the parties to any such arrangements to take any steps necessary to secure that the requirements of this section are complied with. (4) This section applies to arrangements notwithstanding that they were made before the passing of this Act and any steps required to be taken in relation to such arrangements shall be taken before anything is done in pursuance of the arrangements after the passing of this Act.

Mr. Dunn

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Speaker

With this amendment it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendment No. 14.

Mr. Dunn

The amendment, put down by my noble Friend Baroness Cox in Committee in the Lords, stemmed from the general concern that the interests of those smaller unions on the Burnham further education committee who had a distinctive contribution to make should be protected. That concern was first expressed in Committee here by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-West (Dr. Hampson). He feared that the Association of Polytechnic Teachers might be excluded from any national negotiating framework set up by representatives of the local authority employers and the further education teachers. The concern is a valid one. The National Joint Council for Further Education, which deals with the conditions of employment of further education teachers, and was set up jointly by the local authority employers and representatives of teachers in further education, does not include the APT. The APT has pressed without success to be in this body. As it has 20 per cent. of polytechnic lecturer in its membership, it has a strong case for representation.

The amendment protects not only the APT's interest but also that of the other smaller unions on Burnham FE, who have a right to be involved because of their distinctive contribution. I am thinking particularly of the National Society for Education in Art and Design, and the Association of Agricultural Education Staffs.

The amendment was accepted in another place without a Division and, I think it is fair to say, with a good measure of support from all sides. The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey said that he was in sympathy with the intention behind the amendment, and the noble Lord, Lord Kilmarnock said that he supported the amendment in principle. I hope that the House will agree that the amendment should be accepted.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett

Will the Minister give us a little more information? As he will be aware, the FE negotiations over pay and conditions were going well until the middle of the autumn, when they ran into certain difficulties. As I understand it, the negotiations have restarted today. While I have been in the House I have not been able to find out whether the negotiations are going on or whether they have run into further difficulties. I hope that the negotiations are continuing and that, as a result of the negotiations today, there may well be a phase when some detailed working parties have to be set up.

When this measure receives Royal Assent, I am a little concerned about how far the negotiations might have to be interrupted in order to adjust the groups of people who are doing the negotiating. It might be rather unfortunate if the negotiating body was being changed in the middle of negotiations that were reaching a certain measure of success. I hope that the negotiations that started again today will have reached major agreement on many points. I am sure that the Government would want those negotiations to be successful and for harmony to return to our FE institutions.

It would be helpful if the Government could say whether they envisage those negotiations being completed with the existing group of negotiators or whether they feel, as a result of the amendment, that it will be necessary to restart in some of those areas in which agreement has already been reached. I hope that the Minister will tell us that the negotiations are moving along successfully. I also hope that he will tell us what is going to happen on the matter of changing the negotiators if the amendment is carried and the measure receives Royal Assent in the not-too-distant future.

Mr. Dunn

Like the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett), having been in purdah, as it were, in the House from midday, I am not aware of the developments to which he referred. However, I shall of course ensure that we become aware of what has happened today.

The hon. Gentleman is right in his interpretation. The national joint council meeting does not involve the APT because there is no requirement for it to be involved. However, as he rightly surmises, it will require the APT to be involved from the point of Royal Assent.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords amendments Nos. 11 to 14 agreed to.