HC Deb 28 October 1986 vol 103 cc190-1 4.43 pm
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Is this a genuine point of order or a continuation of the previous questions?

Mr. Skinner

Yes, it is genuine, if you will allow me —[HON. MEMBERS: "Come on."] This will not take too long.

You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that last Thursday there was an altercation in the House—to which I did not pay any special attention—when the right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) walked out. Subsequently, there were a couple of points of order that petered out. I was not present yesterday to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) raise a point of order requesting a personal statement about what the right hon. Member for Chingford had threatened in the House and then said outside. I have been looking at the different statements made both inside and outside the House. I am one of those who are quite prepared to follow the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Chingford and repeat outside what I say in here. I have always believed in that.

However, I have a problem. When the right hon. Member for Chingford stormed and flounced out —I make no point about that, because it is his business—he said, and I quote, "The witness approached Mitchell." Three hours later, he changed that to—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I do not think that I can help the hon. Gentleman. What the right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) said outside the Chamber is not a matter for me.

Mr. Skinner

I am coming to my point, Mr. Speaker. As I said earlier, I was quite prepared to take on the right hon. Member for Chingford, but three hours after having made his statement outside the House, he changed it and said that in fact Mitchell had approached the witness. We need to know exactly what the right hon. Gentleman is saying outside the House. It would not be a bad idea if he came inside the House and made a personal statement. You can have a say in that, Mr. Speaker because a personal statement is not like a ministerial statement. If the right hon. Gentleman did that, my hon. Friend the Member for Workington and others could challenge him. We want to know exactly what he means. Hon. Members could challenge him in the House and then I could challenge him outside, just as he cleverly suggested last Thursday. I think that it is important that the House has that statement before it.

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)

rose—

Mr. Speaker

I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not seeking to be called on the next debate, because many other hon. Members are.

Mr. Winnick

One of the problems that was pointed out yesterday — [AN HON. MEMBER: "What is the point of order?"] It is a point of order. As was pointed out yesterday, it is extremely difficult to question the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. The right hon. Gentleman has made a provocative statement. I know that that has absolutely nothing to do with the Chair, but we now believe that Tory Central Office was probably involved in a conspiracy. We are not in a position to question the chairman of the Conservative party because, although he is in the Cabinet, he answers questions only four times a year, for about five minutes each time.

I am not in any way bringing you into the dispute, Mr. Speaker, but it is clear that the right hon. Gentleman has accepted some responsibility by responding to the point of order last Thursday. It is said that Members of Parliament have the right to question Ministers in the House and should not demonstrate outside. However, on this issue we find ourselves in some difficulty. When will we have the opportunity to challenge the right hon. Gentleman on what he said last week so that we can demonstrate that it was not true?

Mr. Speaker

I must tell the hon. Gentleman—and he would he the first to realise this—that provocative statements are frequently made in Parliament. That is not new. I am not responsible for the Conservative party any more than I am responsible for the Labour or Alliance parties. This is not a matter for me and I cannot help the House. I must tell the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) that is he wants to find out what the right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) means, he had better do as he said and, in his own words, take him on.