Points of Order (Hansard, 26 November 1986)

§ Mr. Speaker
I shall take first points of order arising from questions today.

§ Mr. Albert McQuarrie (Banff and Buchan)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory reply to my question No. 6, I give notice that I intend to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

§ Mr. James Callaghan (Cardiff, South and Penarth)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. While no one would accuse any Minister on the Treasury Bench of ever fiddling any statistic, is it not a fortunate, fortuitous and happy chance that every revision of figures that is published, whether in this area or on employment, redounds to the advantage of the Government?

§ Mr. Robert Atkins (South Ribble)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Does it arise from questions today?

§ Mr. Atkins
Yesterday.

§ Mr. Speaker
It would have been more appropriate for the hon. Gentleman to have raised the matter yesterday when we had points of order. We cannot back deal.

§ Mr. Robert Atkins
I am not given to raising points of order ad lib, unlike some hon. Members I could mention. Conservative Members instinctively support your rulings, Mr. Speaker. It is with that consideration in mind that I ask permission to raise one or two points of order on matters that concern me.
Following consideration of what is reported in column 138 of today's Hansard—which was not available yesterday so that I could not check it—I want to ask your advice on a number of points. We are awaiting your ruling, Mr. Speaker, on the contention of my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) yesterday that the so-called point of order raised by the Leader of the Opposition was not a point of order. We await your ruling on that with some interest.

§ Mr. Speaker
I am not prepared to take points of order today on what happened yesterday.—[Interruption.] I am not. That matter was fully dealt with yesterday in a long run of questions. It is quite out of order for the hon. Gentleman today to raise points of order that he could easily have raised on a previous day.

Several Hon. Members
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I will take points of order only on matters that do not refer back to what happened yesterday.

§ Mr. Eric Forth (Mid-Worcestershire)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Are you now able to give the House guidance about the use of points of order, specifically when hon. Members use a point of order wrongly, in order to make accusations and allegations against members of the public, members of the Civil Service, or, indeed, other Members of the House? Many of us are becoming concerned at the abuse of the procedures of the House, mainly by Opposition Members, by making allegations under the guise of points of order? Will you give us guidance on that, Mr. Speaker?

§ Mr. Speaker
Let me clear up the matter once and for all. We are getting into the bad habit of raising points of 272 order on political issues—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Order. Such issues are nothing to do with the Chair. The House will know that I am frequently on my feet repeating the words, "This is not a matter for me". Indeed, these points of order are not matters for me, and I must say to the House that it would be in the interest of good order if we stopped it.

§ Mr. Geoffrey Dickens (Littleborough and Saddleworth)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sure that the House will agree that from the moment when, according to ancient custom, you were dragged into the Speaker's chair you have been a model in upholding the traditions of the House. Having said that, I have never raised with you a bogus point of order, but I am growing deeply concerned that many hon. Members, not just on political points, but on security points—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] When one seeks to table a question with any element of security, the Table Office rightly says that that is prevented under the Burke arrangements—[HON. MEMBERS: "Burke?"] The Birkett arrangements—not Edmund Burke. That being so, one is always willing to acquiesce with the ruling of the Table Office, which comes from you, Mr. Speaker. But I am deeply concerned—and I mean deeply concerned—that we have Members in the House who would disregard the political security of the country to make cheap political points——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman is doing exactly what he was hoping nobody else would do.

§ Mr. Anthony Beaumont-Dark (Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am the last to add to your problems, but the House can look only to you for guidance. I say this with great and genuine sincerity. The Vote of the House, which we all have every day, is now being used almost like a mail catalogue of innuendoes and accusations about people outside the House. There was a time in the House when the Vote was used very sparingly to draw the attention of the people and of the House to various matters. Now, day after day, not one, not a dozen, but 20 people who may well be innocent, who have not had the benefit of trial and who do not have the benefit of defence, are abused and have their names dragged continually into the Vote by seekers, not after truth, but after what they think of their own careers.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) once honourably withdrew an accusation against a member of Rolls-Royce. It used to be a rare occurrence to abuse someone who was not in the House. It is now an everyday occurrence. Have you no control, Mr. Speaker, over what goes in the Vote, because if it goes on as it is we shall all be brought into disrepute?

§ Mr. Speaker
I have control over what goes in the Vote. The Table Office and I apply very strictly the rules regarding early-day motions. I imagine that that is what the hon. Gentleman means. If the hon. Gentleman believes that the procedure is being misused——

§ Mr. Beaumont-Dark
Abused.

§ Mr. Speaker
If it were being abused, the motion would not go in. If the hon. Gentleman believes that the procedure is being misused, the proper course is to bring the matter to the attention of the Select Committee on Procedure which, I understand, is minded to examine this very matter.
273 Last week, I said that we were getting into the habit of naming people outside this place who had no redress and that we should watch this very carefully because, although we have an undoubted right of free speech in this place, we have an equal obligation to use it with discretion.

§ Mr. Patrick Nicholls (Teignbridge)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask for your guidance? Early-day motion 160 on today's Order Paper specifically names Lord Rothschild and accuses him in blatant and direct terms of having committed a criminal offence. That accusation has been put on the Order Paper by the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours). You have reminded hon. Members on many occasions that they are responsible for their statements in the House. In view of what you have just said, Mr. Speaker, may I ask for your guidance? Is there no vicious or slanderous calumny that cannot be put on the Order Paper without your having any control over it?

§ Mr. Speaker
Every question and every early-day motion on the Order Paper has been carefully screened by the Table Office to ensure that it meets the rules. If it did not meet the rules, it would not be on the Order Paper. I repeat, however, that if rules become misused it is right that the Procedure Committee, which is a Select Committee of this House, should look into the matter and I understand that it is seeking to do so.

§ Mr. Nicholls
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I have dealt with the matter. The hon. Gentleman cannot ask supplementaries of me.

§ Mr. Nicholls
I asked for your guidance and I did not get it.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order.

§ Mr. John Townend (Bridlington)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am not in the habit of raising points of order and I know that you regard it as very important to protect the interests of Back Benchers. I am very perturbed that every day seems to bring a long spell of bogus points of order, which inevitably takes time from Back Benchers because the Front Bench speakers always get their allocation. In future, when dealing with points of order, will you bear in mind the amount of time being taken from Back Benchers?

§ Mr. Speaker
That is exactly what is happening today—an Opposition day when a long list of Members wish to speak. Did I not make the same remark yesterday?

§ Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Reference has been made to questions that I have tabled. Perhaps I could just establish——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. This is exactly what I hoped that the House would stop doing. It is absolutely out of order for the hon. Gentleman to seek to raise a political point or to draw attention to his early-day motion on a point of order through me.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
Sit down, please. If the point of order is a matter touching directly on my responsibility, I will take it. If not, I shall ask the hon. Gentleman to sit down at once, because this is happening too frequently.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
My point of order does not relate to early-day motions. It relates specifically to questions on the Order Paper in my name. All the individuals that I have named on the Order Paper have been the subject of a reprimand by letter from the Attorney-General and have either been referred to the Metropolitan——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I am not taking that. It has nothing to do with me.

§ Mr. Michael Brown (Brigg and Cleethorpes)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think that this is the first occasion in this Parliament on which I have sought to raise a point of order in what might be described as prime time. I raise it because I, too, have decided—as is my right, provided that it is in order—to table a number of early-day motions which the Table Office has accepted and which appear on the Order Paper today.
I ask you to reconsider your remarks yesterday about the way in which the point of order raised by the Leader of the Opposition——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I shall not do that. I told the hon. Gentleman that we had a long run on this yesterday. I will take points of order touching on matters which have arisen today. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to raise a point of order about the numerous early-day motions that he has on the Order Paper today, I shall take it.

§ Mr. Brown
Mr. Speaker, you will see that the numerous early-day motions that I have tabled refer to the fact that some Opposition Members signed the early-day motions tabled in the name of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours). Some of those hon. Members have Front-Bench responsibility——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order.

§ Mr. Brown
I must finish this sentence.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I am on my feet. The hon. Gentleman seeks to raise in the House the subject of his early-day motions. That is out of order. It is not a matter for me.

§ Mr. Brown
I am not seeking to do that, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. If the hon. Gentleman seeks to do that, I shall stop him at once.

§ Mr. Brown
I wish to complete the sentence. The point I am making to you, Mr. Speaker, is that I invited Opposition Members to withdraw their names from an early-day motion on the assumption that they believed that they were being spoken for by——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. That is precisely what the hon. Gentleman's early-day motions are about. It is not a matter for me. He has staked them out clearly in his early-day motions. That is within order and is fair enough, but it is not a matter for me.