§ Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield)On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. I rise on a point of order relating to the accuracy of the Official Report. I rang your office this morning to draw attention to it, because it apparently is the case that instructions have been given to the Official Reporters that comments made by Members from a sedentary position are not to be reported. Hon. Members on both sides of the House occasionally make such comments, and sometimes the Minister or the Member thus interrupted makes a reference to the interruption which is then deleted.
I am not asking you to give a ruling today, but it is a very important question, Mr. Speaker. The full flavour of the House is contributed to not only by Members on their feet but by Members from a sedentary position. Also, now that the sound archives are available, anyone listening to the sound archives would hear the sedentary comments but would not find them reported in Hansard. I understand that instructions have been given that sedentary interruptions are not to be reported and, indeed, that certain other phrases that have been used in the House are to be deleted.
As you will know, Mr. Speaker, "Erskine May", on page 237, says that you are responsible, through the Clerk of the House, for the accuracy of the Votes and Proceedings, and through the Editor, whom you appoint, for the Official Report of debates, but that the Editor of Hansard is himself responsible for the preparation of an accurate report. I read from "Erskine May" at page 249:
The Editor is responsible for producing a verbatim report on proceedings in the House … for the publication in the Official Report.The point that I make, Mr. Speaker. is that this affects the integrity of the record. No other Member is allowed to have his phrases removed, and if the Speaker were. through the Clerk, to give instructions, it would affect the integrity of the record. I do not expect that you are able to give a ruling today, but I ask you to consider very carefully either whether this should be referred to the Procedure Committee or alternatively whether, as with the Library and computer bureau, there should be a Committee of the House that overlooks the preparation of Hansard where, hitherto, discretion on whether to report or not to report has been left to the Editor then supervising the preparation of the record.Mr. Speaker, it is a very big question that I raise. I hope that you will not hasten to reply at once, but I believe that this is a matter that affects the records of Parliament and, indeed, the integrity of its report.
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is an important matter and I am able to reply because the right hon. Gentleman kindly gave me notice that he was going to raise this matter.
May I make it plain to the House that there is nothing new in what I said yesterday. The practices followed in compiling the Official Report are of long standing and are as follows. First, sedentary comments are not reported unless they are taken up either by the Member who has the Floor or by the Chair.
Secondly, if the Chair calls for order or the Member on his feet takes up a group of comments, that is normally reported by the word "interruption". I believe that these practices should be closely observed. I am sure that the House would not wish the occupant of the Chair to rise every few minutes to deal with sedentary interruptions. 855 Nor do I think that the House would wish a Member to be put on the record when he has not been called by the Chair, either to speak or to intervene in a speech.
§ Mr. BennFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I fully respect what you have said, but I ask you to consider two things. First of all, as I understand it, the discretion has hitherto been left in implementing the rules to the Official Reporters and the Editor for the day. Secondly, yesterday, it so happens, my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) made an intervention that was the subject of a reply by the Front Bench Minister who was then speaking. I understand that the instructions were that that was to be removed. I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, that you felt it necessary to give a ruling today, because I urge you to consider the danger of the sound archives recording what actually happened and Hansard recording what the Clerk, on your instructions, told Hansard to report. I beg you to give consideration to this matter, and perhaps allow it to be referred to the Procedure Committee.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe right hon. Member, and any other Member, can refer such matters to the Procedure Committee—that is not a matter for me. I cannot go beyond what I have said. This is a principle of long standing, and I do not think that the House would wish to have it changed. I rather sensed that from the response that I received.
§ Mr. Andrew Faulds (Warley, West)Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. You may recall that some of us occasionally make interventions from a sedentary position—
§ Mr. Alf Dubs (Battersea)Never.
§ Mr. FauldsOccasionally. I have now been here a long time—more than most hon. Members—[Interruption.] and there are many more years to come. I recall, and I am sure that you will endorse my argument, Sir, that in those earlier days, frequently sedentary interventions were recorded, whether there was a riposte or not, and they very frequently enlivened the debates, often made valuable points, and were very germane to the debate. I am open to correction, but I understand that you were the one who introduced the change—[Interruption.] Well, your predecessor. among his many other mistakes—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. That is unworthy of the hon. Gentleman. I have introduced no new principle. I ask the House to consider the implications of every comment from a sedentary position being recorded in Hansard, because after all, what would then be the point of making a speech?
§ Mr. FauldsFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If I could finish—
§ Mr. FauldsIf I could finish my point, I shoulc be grateful. I am simply backing the good advice given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), that perhaps this matter should be considered further, and we should revert to the earlier practice.
§ Mr. Julian Amery (Brighton, Pavilion)Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Loth as I am to come to the support of the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), filial piety obliges me to say that when, in 1939, my father said "Speak for England" in Arthur Greenwood's speech, he did so from a sedentary position, and it is recorded.
§ Mr. BennFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) has cited a famous example of a comment from a sedentary position, which became a historic phrase, quoted around the world. If I may say so, with great respect, Mr. Speaker, I am not asking that that practice should be changed, but that the practice remain unchanged. I was concerned to hear you say that you are sure that the House would not wish to find the record punctuated by such remarks. If sedentary remarks are undesirable, they should be dealt with as they are, by the discipline that is vested in you, Mr. Speaker, not by deleting them from Hansard.
I beg you to take seriously the points that I am making. We are preparing and publishing records for future generations, who will want to get the flavour of the House as well as the words that have been cleared by the Clerks.
§ Mr. Robert Atkins (South Ribble)What did your old man say?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. This is quite an important matter. I frequently do not hear remarks made from a sedentary position, and I did not hear that one.
§ Sir John Biggs-DavisonIn support of what you have just said, Mr. Speaker, and with reference to what my right hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) said about the famous appeal by his father to a right hon. Member of the Labour party to speak for England, if you will refer to the official record of that day in 1939 you will not find it. Those words went round the world by virtue of the newspaper press, but because they were uttered from a sedentary position they were not reported in Hansard.
§ Mr. SpeakerThat is perhaps the fact, but let me clear this matter. I think that the whole House would wish me to do that. Sedentary comments that add to the flavour of the debate are one thing. Constant sedentary comments that are designed to interrupt someone who is on his feet do not add to the debate. That was the point that I was trying to make yesterday and not in any way altering the traditional rules, which I have now affirmed.