HC Deb 12 May 1986 vol 97 cc444-5
45. Mr. Chapman

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what steps have been taken to encourage interchange of personnel between the Civil Service and the private sector.

Mr. Luce

The Government continue to encourage the policy of secondments in both directions between the Civil Service and the private sector. Last year there were 386 secondments in both directions in operation with industry and commerce, an increase of 28 per cent. over 1984. The details are given in a report on the interchange programme published recently by the Management and Personnel Office, copies of which have been placed in the Library of the House.

Mr. Chapman

In welcoming that trend, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he agrees that there is scope for much greater interchange, particularly to enable civil servants to gain experience in industry, to the benefit of everybody? Will he sympathetically consider the additional incentive of setting up a trust along the lines of the Parliament and Industry Trust to encourage this interchange?

Mr. Luce

I agree with my hon. Friend. The Government's objective is to encourage this. I am glad to say that there has been a 28 per cent. increase in 1985 over 1984. There is a Whitehall and industry scheme, which is clearly limited, but has started, in which a number of civil servants are able to have up to 15 days with businesses. This also plays its part. As to the broader area of concern, the information that I have given is confined to the private sector, but at least 520 other jobs are outward secondment for non-civil service sectors, including universities and colleges. This sector should be encouraged as well.

Mr. Robert Sheldon

Is the Minister aware that one of the most important aspects of this secondment lies at a much higher level within the Civil Service, particularly assistant secretary and under-secretary grades? It is there that we are falling far short of what can be achieved. How many of those 386 civil servants come from the assistant secretary and under-secretary grades?

Mr. Luce

The right hon. Gentleman is right to pinpoint the fact that the bulk of secondments come in the principal grade, which is a lower grade. There are just over 11,000 principals. It is true that there are fewer secondments at more senior level. I am examining this to see whether more can be done to encourage secondment at a higher level.

Mr. Stokes

Is my right hon. Friend aware that contact by civil servants with the wider world of industry and commerce would give them a breath of fresh air and invigorate them for their future service in the public service?

Mr. Luce

I hope that that is what civil servants already find. A number of people—just under 200—come in from industry and the private sector for a period of secondment to the Civil Service, and that is also helpful.

Dr. McDonald

How many out of the 386 who have been given this opportunity are women? Will the Minister ensure that women in the principal grades are given proper opportunities, because this will enable them to achieve higher levels in the Civil Service later in their careers?

Mr. Luce

I cannot give an answer to the specific question without notice, but I shall make sure that the hon. Lady's question is answered. As she knows, the Civil Service and Government Departments are equal opportunity employers and we are pursuing that point as vigorously as possible.