HC Deb 24 March 1986 vol 94 cc602-4
22. Mr. Peter Bruinvels

asked the Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, if the commissioners will make it their policy that all new leases granted by them for commercial premises prohibit their use for trading on Sundays.

Sir William van Straubenezee The Second Church Estates Commissioner, Representing Church Commissioners

The Commissioners' standard form of lease provides that their shops should open during the normal business hours of the locality". Should the current law be amended, the commissioners will consider the position.

Mr. Bruinvels

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a distinct, although sad, possibility that Sunday trading will be upon us? Is it not incumbent on the Church Commissioners to give a lead to the rest of the country by inserting in the leases of new businesses a provision which prevents them from trading on Sundays? I appreciate that the Church Commissioners already hold £26 million-worth of shares in companies that are likely to trade on Sundays, but does my hon. Friend agree that the best way forward is to set such a requirement to ensure that the Church Commissioners are whiter than the rest of the country and that new estates which are to open in Ipswich, Kingston, Birkenhead and Stockport do not trade on Sundays?

Sir William van Straubenzee

With respect to my hon. Friend, Sunday trading is with us, and has been for some time. That is not the issue. The issue is whether, in tidying up a wholly unsatisfactory law, the House should go as far as complete abolition. That matter goes wider than this question. As I have said, the Church Commissioners will consider the matter if and when the law is changed.

Mr. Simon Hughes

Since we last had questions on this subject, have the Church Commissioners also received representations from the public about Sunday opening? If so, what steps have they taken, or do they plan to take, or to make it clear on behalf of the interests that they represent that there is increasingly widespread anxiety at the Government's continuing intention not to change their original plans but to ensure that there is a complete derestriction of Sunday trading?

Sir William van Straubenzee

I am not aware, although I shall inquire, of any additional specific representations. If I am wrong on that, I shall inform the hon. Member. He is totally accurate in saying that the overwhelming view of the Church of England as a whole, to which the Church Commissioners have responded—it is for them that I answer—is hostile to the idea of the total abolition of trading restrictions.

Mr. Aitken

Is my hon. Friend aware that until recently the cathedral shop in the precincts of Canterbury cathedral was vigorously trading on Sundays by selling beer mats and other tourist knick-knacks? Would it not be wiser for the Church Commissioners to correct the beam on ecclesiastical premises before they try to correct the mote in commercial premises?

Sir William van Straubenzee

That is precisely why they did so. It came as a surprise to one or two senior dignitaries to discover that this practice was going on. I imagine that my hon. Friend discovered it because one of the books on sale is very useful in the purchase of beer.

Mr. Ryman

Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that this is a far wider issue, and that if the Shops Bill were introduced and passed into law—

Mr. Speaker

Order. It cannot be wider than the new leases referred to in the question.

Mr. Ryman

I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. The principle arises from the specific question. The Auld report recognised the anomalies in the law, but would it not be monstrous if the Government used their majority to force the Shops Bill through the House in the face of widespread opposition from the trade unions, acting to protect their members, and the Christian community throughout the country, when it would wholly alter the character of a Sunday? Does the hon. Gentleman agree—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I gave the hon. Gentleman a good steer on that.

Mr. Ryman

I shall throw some leases in.

Sir William van Straubenzee

I am answering only about new leases as and when the law is changed. If it is changed, the matter will have to be reconsidered. Meanwhile, the views of the Church are well known, and, needless to say, I share them and associate myself with them.

Mr. Cormack

Before granting new leases, will my hon. Friend and his colleagues wait until the House has had time to deliberate? Does he agree that we do not want a high street Sunday, and therefore if the law as at present proposed is passed no new leases should be given to shops in high streets to trade on Sundays?

Sir William van Straubenzee

I shall gladly consider that, in the light of my hon. Friend's penetrating comments.