HC Deb 17 March 1986 vol 94 cc79-89

`(1) A standing charge fixed by a public gas supplier shall in any one year rise no higher than the retail price index.

(2) Before a standing charge is fixed by a public gas supplier he shall notify the Director who shall investigate the components and levels of such a charge.

(3) Where in the light of such investigations the Director is satisfied.

  1. (a) the services provided and paid for by the standing charge have been reduced; or
  2. (b) the public gas supplier has achieved significant cost reductions in the components making up such a charge then the Director may give direction to the public gas 80 supplier to reduce standing charges or to increase them by amounts in any one year less than the increase in the retail price index.'.—[Mr. Rowlands.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Rowlands

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Few hon. Members will have failed to notice the growing anger, frustration and bitterness among an increasing number of consumers of gas and electricity about standing charges. During the past four years, while I have been an Opposition spokesman on energy, I have received many complaints and heard many arguments about standing charges. Indeed, enough pressure built up inside and outside the House to compel the Government to cajole the gas and electricity industries to introduce new codes on standing charges. The feelings of frustration, anger and bitterness come especially from the elderly. Sometimes, the cost of the gas that they consume is less than the cost of their standing charges.

As a result of the pressures, the gas and electricity councils introduced codes to govern standing charges and ensured initially that the charge would be no greater than the cost of gas consumed in any quarter. However, as hon. Members on both sides of the House will recognise, the gas and electricity industries were not enthusiastic supporters of the initial proposition and have tried to nibble away at the voluntary arrangements. That was the background to our debates in Committee on the Government's proposals for standing charges.

The new clause endeavours to ensure that standing charges will not increase by more than the rate of inflation. In some circumstances, and after the director general has investigated, the increases should be less than the rate of inflation. Indeed, in some cases there should be decreases in standing charges.

We tried to entice the Government into supporting a similar provision in Committee, but we failed. Unless we get satisfaction tonight, we shall press the new clause to a Division because of the weasel words that are used in a condition to the 25-year monopoly licence that will be given to British Gas. The condition attached to the proposed draft licence states that the supplier—British Gas— shall use its best endeavours to ensure that standing charges do not increase above the retail prices index. It does not say that the supplier will be unable to increase charges above the retail prices index; simply that he should use his best endeavours. The Opposition distrust those words. They are weasel words that could be used as a let-out, so that the supplier could wriggle out of the commitment which the Government believe they have established.

We distrust the condition, not only because of the words, but because of the information that we have received on the background to the condition. We understand that when the Bill was published last November, internal management documents from the BGC expected that the formula for standing charges in the draft licence would be RPI plus Z. The BGC expected, not unreasonably, that such a formula would be included in a draft licence. We were extremely suspicious when that was brought to our attention and we believe that, late in the day, the Government realised how much outrage would be caused by such a formula. As a result of the pressure that built up, the Government managed to obtain a compromise arrangement. The words "best endeavours" are no more than a compromise between the condition wanted by the BGC—RPI plus Z—and the present formula for the condition attached to the licence.

We passionately believe that there is a case for ensuring statutorily that the upper increase limit on standing charges should be no higher than the increase in the retail prices index. However, we also believe—this relates to the other half of the new clause—that the director general should have the power to investigate the components of a standing charge. If he discovers that the supplier has made savings in services which are supposedly covered by the standing charge, he should recommend an increase less than the RPI, or a decrease.

Let me illustrate the point that I am trying to make. It is possible, and even probable, that British Gas plc will try to make savings on meter reading. Instead of reading meters quarterly, there will be longer periods between readings, estimates of bills will be sent to customers and the company will wait for customers to inform it of the correct amount. The result could be considerable savings. Meter staff and reading are two components of the standing charge, so if the director general discovered such savings, he could attribute them directly to the standing charge and suggest either a lower increase or a reduction in charges. There have also been many changes in meter technology and in the way in which supplies into our homes can be metered.

The Government might say that such savings are indirectly reflected on other aspects of the price formula, but where the savings can be related specifically to the components of a standing charge, they should reflect directly on increases or decreases in the charge. Therefore, the director general has a useful and important role to play in monitoring and investigating standing charges. If the public gas supplier can achieve significant cost reductions in the components of a standing charge, the director general may direct the supplier to reduce standing charges or at least to increase them by less than the increase in the retail prices index.

We are introducing some flexibility, not in the increase of standing charges above the RPI, but, where savings might be made, in the increase below the rate of inflation. We submit the new clause in a spirit of moderation and to respond to the growing feeling of frustration and anger felt by a large number of elderly consumers about the level of standing charges.

Miss Black has not been a notable critic of the Government; she has not been up front on many of these major issues. I hope that she and the Gas Consumers Council will support the arrangements that we propose, because we believe that we are justifiably responding to the feelings, demands, anger and bitterness about standing charges that have been made clear to the House in the past four years.

Mr. Rost

I am sorry to have to tell my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench that I am slightly tempted to support the Opposition's new clause, unless my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary can, somehow or other, dissuade me from doing so. I was one of those—there were a number on the Conservative Benches—who, on Second Reading, raised the question of standing charges. We were rather disturbed to see the wording in the draft authorisation as simply imposing on British Gas a requirement that it would use its "best endeavours" to keep increases below the rate of inflation. Some of us felt that that needed re-wording to make it a little more precise and forceful. I did not serve on the Committee, and I am surprised to find on Report that we have made no progress.

The Select Committee made recommendations on standing charges which the Government do not appear to have taken on board, and I find myself in something of a dilemma in supporting the Government. We know that there is a great deal of irritation about standing charges, particularly among low-income consumers, and I should have thought that it would be reasonable to provide, before fixing the standing charge, not only that the director general should be notified, but that he should be obliged to investigate whether the increase is justified.

Standing charges can be a skilful way of concealing rises in tariffs. If there are to be rises in tariffs through standing charges, there must be a way in which they can be prevented if British Gas says that it has acted in its "best endeavours" but requires more income and intends to get some through increased standing charges rather than through increased tariffs. That could have an undesirable impact on certain consumers.

Therefore, I hope that my hon. Friend, before the new clause is pressed to a Division, will make some much more reassuring noises than my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was able to do on Second Reading.

Mrs. Clwyd

My hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) has made the case for our new clause forcefully. I draw the attention of the House, as I am sure it will be drawn later tonight, to the latest report of the Select Committee on Energy which talks about the unacceptable and shameful lack of heat in poor homes this winter … a winter which should have concentrated the Government's mind both on the hardship and danger to life caused by unacceptable and shameful levels of fuel poverty. In Committee, we made clear our concern about standing charges and their importance in fuel poverty. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security during a debate last year said: energy prices … are for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy. He spoke about: the extent to which the cost of fuel is relevant to those on low incomes … Fuel is clearly a basic necessity, especially for the elderly and the sick. I recognise the concern that is felt by many on low incomes when it comes to paying for fuel."—[Official Report, 16 December 1985; Vol. 89, c. 134.] 8.15 pm

However, we know from the Social Security Bill that the Under-Secretary's understanding has lost the day, because the Bill proposes to abolish heating additions and single payments to help with fuel bills. We are concerned that the Gas Bill does not oblige British Gas to keep any increase in standing charges within the rate of inflation. We do not understand the phrase "best endeavours", despite the Minister's attempts to explain it in legal terminology in Committee. I am sure that no other Opposition Member understands that phrase and nor do members of the public.

Do the majority of Conservative Members have any understanding of what fuel poverty means to so many people? Evidence has been given time after time to the Select Committee on Energy from Age Concern and the National Right to Fuel Campaign about fuel poverty. How can the Government still shelter behind the phrase "best endeavours"? The National Right to Fuel Campaign gave detailed evidence about domestic gas disconnections, which it admitted were fewer than for electricity. However, there is worrying evidence, about which we should all be concerned, and the number of disconnections is still too high. They continue to occur in households for which alternative measures and aid would reduce hardship. Age Concern and the Child Poverty Action Group have shown that the present level of social security benefit given to low income households is inadequate to help those who experience difficulty in paying their fuel bills. We gave many such examples in Committee.

For example, at the beginning of last year an article in The Guardian talked about

A 13-year-old boy whose mother and sister were found dead in the council flat where the heaters were cold, died in St. Thomas's Hospital, London, yesterday. He was found with his mother, aged 31. Intense cold and the problems of paying for fuel bills are not associated only with the elderly. The family were living in a flat in central London. The article said that gas central heating in the flat was working two days before Mrs. Smith and Natasha were found dead, but a preliminary investigation after the family was found showed that the main jets would not ignite. Mrs Smith, a student, could have decided to do without heat because she had been worried about the prospect of mounting fuel bills. As a result of that tragic case, various voluntary organisations pressed for more Government action to prevent hypothermia and other cold-induced illnesses. This country has a greater number of deaths from hypothermia than north America and north Europe. We should be thoroughly ashamed of that in this day and age.

Many of my constituents turn off the heat because they are afraid of the size of their fuel bills. I am referring not only to poor pensioners, those on supplementary benefit or the unemployed, but to relatively well-off pensioners, who are scared stiff about the size of their fuel bills. For all households who rely upon low incomes, the expenses incurred in paying their fuel bills are already high. Since the energy crisis in the late 1960s there have been escalating increases in electricity prices and Government-induced increases in gas prices.

Fuel poverty since 1979 has become even more prevalent. Both the Social Security Bill and the Gas Bill completely ignore the fact by refusing to recognise that fuel costs are incurred disproportionately and that low income households spend a greater percentage of their income on fuel than do higher income households. That is part of the reason for fuel poverty becoming so prevalent. The real needs of low income households in relation to fuel expenditure have not been recognised. If implemented in its present form without the Opposition amendment, the Bill will only compound this very serious problem.

Mr. Peter Hardy (Wentworth)

I am left with only one or two minutes to speak because the Minister has to reply to this debate. It is disgraceful that a subject that is as important and serious as this for many thousands of our fellow citizens cannot be properly considered because of the operation of the guillotine.

I trust that the Government recognise that the proposal of my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) is sensible. It is free of the gobbledegook which disfigured the Government's earlier approach. There are standing charges not only for gas but for water, electricity, telephones, and so on. All of them present very serious problems. We are concerned that that problem should not be intensified.

Mr. David Hunt

The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) began by reminding the House that there were extensive discussions in Committee about standing charges. However, he referred again to the anger that is felt about standing charges. I have no alternative but to remind him that a wide ranging interdepartmental committee was set up by his right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn). In February 1976, under the signature of the right hon Gentleman, who was then Secretary of State for Energy, it said: The Government asked an interdepartmental group of officials to review the scope for helping poor consumers by adjusting the structure of energy tariffs or by other means". After considering the group's report the Government concluded that none of these possibilities offered a satisfactory way of helping poor consumers with their fuel bills. In paragraph 8, on the specific point raised by the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, the interdepartmental committee concluded: We are satisfied that there is a sound case in economic principle for a tariff structure under which standing charges are maintained separate from the unit consumption charge. The hon. Gentleman referred to the anger that is felt about standing charges. He should not try to rewrite the history books. If he is to be fair to the House of Commons tonight, he should remind hon. Members that it was a Labour Government who reached that conclusion.

The hon. Gentleman is right to remind the House that the clause deals mainly with limiting the increase, which is what this debate has been partly about, subject to other points that have been raised. But standing charges are only part of the price that is paid by the customer. The price formula that is set out in condition 3 of the draft authorisation covers both the standing charge and the rate per therm. Under that price formula, British Gas will have a clear incentive to achieve a real reduction in all the costs under its control, whether they be the costs recovered through the standing charge or through the rate per therm. Efficiency factor "X" in the formula ensures that customers will benefit from increased efficiency.

There is an important question as to the appropriate distribution of the total between the standing charge and the rate per therm. The Government believe that the fair approach is to prevent standing charges from rising faster than the rate of inflation. I note that the new clause adopts the same approach. However, to put that requirement into the legislation would limit the flexibility of the director general to propose adjustments to the regulatory controls in the light of changing circumstances. That is the reason for setting out appropriate regulatory requirements in the authorisation and providing in the Bill a mechanism for making amendments to the authorisation. The new clause would introduce unnecessary and undesirable inflexibility into the controls over standing charges. It is much better to leave the controls in the authorisation.

Mr. Lofthouse

Does the Under-Secretary of State recall that in his evidence to the Select Committee the Secretary of State was as much confused as everybody else about the words "best endeavours"? In reply to a question from me he said: In the Committee stage I shall be perfectly willing to examine this. That is my objective, although to you as a layman and to me as a layman this phrase sounds like 'If you can't make the effort, bad luck."'

Mr. Hunt

I have not reached that point yet. I hope that the hon. Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Mr. Lofthouse) recognises that I have gone through the argument about why it is in the authorisation rather than in the Bill. That answers the points put to me by his hon. Friends. I have still to deal with the exact words.

The new clause also provides that the director general shall investigate the components and levels of such a charge. That, too, is unnecessary. The director general will have full powers to investigate the make up of the standing charge and he may call for any informaion that he believes is necessary. That is provided for in condition 7 of the draft authorisation. If he took the view that the controls on standing charges in the authorisation were producing results that were contrary to the interests of consumers, he would be able to take steps to rectify the situation by initiating a modification.

The final part of the new clause provides that if there have been significant cost reductions in the components making up such a charge, the director general may intervene. Under clause 14 of the Bill, in fixing tariffs British Gas must not show undue preference or disrcimination. This means that standing charges must be fairly related to fixed costs, otherwise small consumers would either be subsidising or being subsidised by larger consumers. The allocation of cost is not an exact science. That is why, for the additional protection of customers, explicit control over standing charges is set out in condition 4.

I seek to convince my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Mr. Rost), as I was able to convince other Conservative Members, that the phrase "best endeavours" has a great deal of legal force. In Committee I quoted the case of IBM (UK) Ltd. against Rockware Glass Ltd. In that case the extent of the plaintiff's obligations to use best endeavours was desrcibed by Lord Justice Buckley as obliging the plaintiffs to be bound to take all those steps in their power which are capable of producing the desired results. In Committee I quoted other cases. In all of those cases it is accepted that to use best endeavours imposes a clear obligation to comply with that requirement.

Condition 4 states clearly that the supplier shall use its best endeavours. That important provision is a satisfactory way of dealing with the matter. If, however, there were a significant reduction in fixed costs and this was not reflected in the balance between standing charges and the rate per therm, the director general could intervene to enforce the non-disrcimination provision if he took the view that it was being infringed.

I realise that the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney cannot agree with me. Indeed, it would be asking too much of him suddenly to agree with me. However, if he reflects upon it for a moment, I think he will see that I have endeavoured to set out these arguments step by step, that his proposal is unnecessary and that it would remove much of the director general's ability to ensure that those who are paying standing charges are properly protected.

Mr. Bruce

Is the Under-Secretary of State able to assure the House that if the general price per therm was not being increased, or was not being increased in line with inflation, standing charges would be, at worst, increased at the same rate as the increase in unit cost, or preferably at less than that rate?

Mr. Hunt

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman understands what I have been saying. I have given a clear assurance. In the authorisation there is the provision, which my right hon. Friend repeated earlier, that standing charges will not be increased higher than the rate of inflation. That is clearly set out. The supplier shall use its "best endeavours" to ensure that. I have further assured him that—this is an important provision—the director general has an opportunity, if he feels that the balance is beginning to infringe the duty—

And it being half past Eight o'clock, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order [17th February] and the Resolution this day, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 188, Noes 230.

Division No. 105] [8.30 pm
AYES
Abse, Leo Duffy, A. E. P.
Adams, Allen (Paisley N) Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.
Anderson, Donald Eadie, Alex
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Eastham, Ken
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE)
Ashton, Joe Evans, John (St. Helens N)
Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) Ewing, Harry
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Fatchett, Derek
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Barnett, Guy Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)
Barron, Kevin Fisher, Mark
Beckett, Mrs Margaret Flannery, Martin
Beith, A. J. Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Bell, Stuart Forrester, John
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Foster, Derek
Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) Foulkes, George
Bermingham, Gerald Fraser, J. (Norwood)
Bidwell, Sydney Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald
Blair, Anthony Freud, Clement
Bray, Dr Jeremy Garrett, W. E.
Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E) George, Bruce
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) Godman, Dr Norman
Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N) Golding, John
Bruce, Malcolm Gould, Bryan
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. Gourlay, Harry
Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) Hamilton, James (M'well N)
Campbell, Ian Hamilton, W. W. (Fife Central)
Campbell-Savours, Dale Hancock, Michael
Canavan, Dennis Hardy, Peter
Carter-Jones, Lewis Harman, Ms Harriet
Cartwright, John Harrison, Rt Hon Walter
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith
Clarke, Thomas Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Clay, Robert Haynes, Frank
Clelland, David Gordon Healey, Rt Hon Denis
Clwyd, Mrs Ann Heffer, Eric S.
Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S) Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)
Cohen, Harry Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall)
Conlan, Bernard Howells, Geraint
Corbett, Robin Hoyle, Douglas
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Craigen, J. M. Hughes, Roy (Newport East)
Crowther, Stan Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)
Cunliffe, Lawrence Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Cunningham, Dr John Janner, Hon Greville
Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'I) Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Deakins, Eric Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Dixon, Donald Kirkwood, Archy
Dormand, Jack Lambie, David
Douglas, Dick Lamond, James
Dubs, Alfred Leadbitter, Ted
Leighton, Ronald Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Lewis, Terence (Worsley) Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)
Litherland, Robert Rogers, Allan
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) Rooker, J. W.
Lofthouse, Geoffrey Ross, Ernest (Dundee W)
Loyden, Edward Rowlands, Ted
McCartney, Hugh Sedgemore, Brian
McDonald, Dr Oonagh Sheerman, Barry
McKelvey, William Sheldon, Rt Hon R.
MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Shore, Rt Hon Peter
McNamara, Kevin Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE)
McTaggart, Robert Silkin, Rt Hon J.
McWilliam, John Skinner, Dennis
Madden, Max Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury)
Marek, Dr John Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'ds E)
Marshall, David (Shettleston) Snape, Peter
Martin, Michael Soley, Clive
Mason, Rt Hon Roy Spearing, Nigel
Maxton, John Steel, Rt Hon David
Maynard, Miss Joan Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)
Meadowcroft, Michael Stott, Roger
Michie, William Strang, Gavin
Mikardo, Ian Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)
Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Thompson, J. (Wansbeck)
Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) Thorne, Stan (Preston)
Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) Tinn, James
Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) Torney, Tom
Nellist, David Wainwright, R.
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Wallace, James
O'Brien, William Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
O'Neill, Martin Wareing, Robert
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Weetch, Ken
Park, George Welsh, Michael
Parry, Robert White, James
Patchett, Terry Williams, Rt Hon A.
Pavitt, Laurie Wilson, Gordon
Pendry, Tom Winnick, David
Pike, Peter Young, David (Bolton SE)
Prescott, John
Radice, Giles Tellers for the Ayes:
Redmond, Martin Mr. Ray Powell and
Richardson, Ms Jo Mr. Allen McKay.
NOES
Adley, Robert Butler, Rt Hon Sir Adam
Aitken, Jonathan Butterfill, John
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Amess, David Cash, William
Ancram, Michael Chapman, Sydney
Aspinwall, Jack Chope, Christopher
Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H. Churchill, W. S.
Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)
Baldry, Tony Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rusqhcliffe)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) Cockeram, Eric
Batiste, Spencer Colvin, Michael
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Conway, Derek
Bellingham, Henry Coombs, Simon
Benyon, William Cope, John
Best, Keith Cormack, Patrick
Bevan, David Gilroy Corrie, John
Biffen, Rt Hon John Cranborne, Viscount
Biggs-Davison, Sir John Critchley, Julian
Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter Currie, Mrs Edwina
Body, Sir Richard Dickens, Geoffrey
Boscawen, Hon Robert Dicks, Terry
Bottomley, Peter Dorrell, Stephen
Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n) Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) Dover, Den
Boyson, Dr Rhodes du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward
Brandon-Bravo, Martin Durant, Tony
Bright, Graham Eggar, Tim
Brittan, Rt Hon Leon Emery, Sir Peter
Brooke, Hon Peter Evennett, David
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) Eyre, Sir Reginald
Browne, John Fletcher, Alexander
Bruinvels, Peter Fookes, Miss Janet
Bryan, Sir Paul Forman, Nigel
Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A. Forth, Eric
Fry, Peter Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian
Garel-Jones, Tristan Pollock, Alexander
Glyn, Dr Alan Porter, Barry
Gorst, John Powell, William (Corby)
Gower, Sir Raymond Powley, John
Greenway, Harry Prentice, Rt Hon Reg
Gregory, Conal Price, Sir David
Griffiths, Sir Eldon Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Grist, Ian Raffan, Keith
Grylls, Michael Raison, Rt Hon Timothy
Gummer, Rt Hon John S Rathbone, Tim
Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) Rhodes James, Robert
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Hampson, Dr Keith Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas
Harris, David Ridsdale, Sir Julian
Hawksley, Warren Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm
Heddle, John Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)
Henderson, Barry Robinson, Mark (N'port W)
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael Roe, Mrs Marion
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. Rossi, Sir Hugh
Hirst, Michael Rost, Peter
Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) Rumbold, Mrs Angela
Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) Ryder, Richard
Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford) Sackville, Hon Thomas
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N) St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.
Hunt, David (Wirral W) Sayeed, Jonathan
Irving, Charles Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
Key, Robert Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Lang, Ian Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Latham, Michael Silvester, Fred
Lee, John (Pendle) Sims, Roger
Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) Skeet, Sir Trevor
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Lester, Jim Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd) Speller, Tony
Lightbown, David Spencer, Derek
Lilley, Peter Spicer, Jim (Dorset W)
Lloyd, Ian (Havant) Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Lord, Michael Stanbrook, Ivor
Luce, Rt Hon Richard Stanley, Rt Hon John
Lyell, Nicholas Steen, Anthony
McCrindle, Robert Stern, Michael
McCurley, Mrs Anna Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)
Macfarlane, Neil Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)
MacGregor, Rt Hon John Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)
MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) Stewart, Ian (Hertf'dshire N)
Maclean, David John Stokes, John
McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) Sumberg, David
Madel, David Taylor, John (Solihull)
Malone, Gerald Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Maples, John Temple-Morris, Peter
Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Thomas, Rt Hon Peter
Mates, Michael Thompson, Donald (Calder V)
Mather, Carol Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)
Maude, Hon Francis Thorne, Neil (Ilford S)
Mayhew, Sir Patrick Thornton, Malcolm
Merchant, Piers Townend, John (Bridlington)
Meyer, Sir Anthony Tracey, Richard
Miller, Hal (B'grove) Trippier, David
Mills, Iain (Meriden) Twinn, Dr Ian
Miscampbell, Norman van Straubenzee, Sir W.
Moate, Roger Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Monro, Sir Hector Viggers, Peter
Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) Waddington, David
Moynihan, Hon C. Waldegrave, Hon William
Needham, Richard Walden, George
Nelson, Anthony Walker, Bill (T'side N)
Neubert, Michael Waller, Gary
Nicholls, Patrick Ward, John
Normanton, Tom Wardle, C. (Bexhill)
Norris, Steven Warren, Kenneth
Ottaway, Richard Watson, John
Page, Sir John (Harrow W) Watts, John
Page, Richard (Herts SW) Whitney, Raymond
Parris, Matthew Wiggin, Jerry
Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abgdn) Winterton, Mrs Ann
Pattie, Geoffrey Winterton, Nicholas
Pawsey, James Wolfson, Mark
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth Wood, Timothy
Woodcock,Michael Tellers for the Noes:
Young,Sir George(Acton) Mr.Tim Sainsbury and
Mr. Peter Lloyd.

Question accordingly negatived.

Forward to