HC Deb 06 March 1986 vol 93 cc440-4
Q1. Mr. Bidwell

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 6 March.

The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be having further meetings later today, including one with the National Pensioners Convention.

Mr. Bidwell

Does the right hon. Lady realise that the pensioners' lobby today indicates not only deep anxiety among our old folk but deep anxiety about them in the nation as a whole? Does she further realise that if the Government had clung to the Labour Government's formula of uprating pensions according to the cost of living or national average earnings, the pensioner and his dependent wife would be £6.50 better off today? Why does the hon. Lady not address her mind to this question? She will hear about it later from the Trades Union Congress. Would this not be a handy sum with which old people could meet their fuel bills instead of freezing to death?

The Prime Minister

The hon. Gentleman is aware that the previous Government's policies led to the International Monetary Fund and to peak inflation, the highest that this country has ever known. This Government kept their pledge to protect pensions against the rise in prices. In fact, pensions have increased by nine percentage points more than prices and we have brought down the inflation that destroyed the savings of pensioners in the 1970s.

Mr. Dorrell

Will my right hon. Friend take time today to consider whether sterling should join the exchange rate mechanism of the European monetary system? Is she aware that Mr. Sam Brittan has argued that this could allow us to reduce the level of interest rates prevailing in Britain? Does she agree that, by any definition, sterling is now more competitive since the decline in the exchange rate in recent weeks and that it may therefore be, in the time-honoured phrase, that the time is ripe for sterling to become a member of the exchange rate mechanism?

The Prime Minister

As my hon. Friend knows, I am asked this question regularly, usually on the basis that "now" is the time to go in. I was asked it when the pound bought DM 3.70. It now buys about DM 3.20. Those who asked that question then must be rather glad that we did not go in, because we should have suffered rather grievously if we had. One day, when we think that the time is appropriate, we shall join the EMS. We do not think that it is appropriate to do so at the moment.

Mr. Kinnock

When the Prime Minister meets the pensioners' delegation this afternoon, will she explain to them why she is deliberately ensuring that the value of the old-age pension next year will be 3 per cent. less in real terms than it is this year? Is that not a deliberate betrayal of her pledge to protect the poor and those who are most in need?

The Prime Minister

I shall explain to them that the pension has gone up by nine percentage points more than prices, that we have kept our pledges to the pensioners and that if we were to accept all of the National Pensioners Convention proposals the cost would be at least £20 billion a year. That would add at least £16 a week to the national insurance contributions of those on average earnings as well as requiring substantial increases in income tax and value added tax. That, and a lot more, I shall explain.

Mr. Kinnock

The Prime Minister must surely know that if she claims that pensions have gone up in real terms by 9 per cent. under her Government, they went up by 20 per cent. in real terms under the last Labour Government. As she is so fond of referring to the record of the last Labour Government, why does she not have the decency to match it?

The Prime Minister

I am not prepared to go back to the inflationary policies of the last Labour Government. That is the way to destroy the savings of pensioners. What the last Labour Government were prepared to do was to create inflation, claim big pension increases and pay for those pension increases by debasing the savings of pensioners. We will not carry out such a dishonest policy.

Q2. Mr. Forth

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 6 March.

The Prime Minister

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Forth

Does my right hon. Friend welcome the statement by President Botha of South Africa on the ending of the state of emergency in his country? Does she believe that this vindicates our policy of continuing to talk to the South Africans, and does she now expect the Opposition parties to welcome the statement as a further advance in the country of South Africa?

The Prime Minister

I welcome very warmly President Botha's decision to lift the state of emergency in South Africa. I hope that it will lead to reduced tension and that it will bring nearer the prospect of a genuine dialogue between the South African Government and black South Africans.

Mr. Loyden

Is the Prime Minister aware that many people will view the decision taken in the High Court yesterday as a further attack on local democracy —[Interruption.] It is she and her Government who should be before the courts to answer for the misery and hardship which she and her Government have imposed upon 750,000 people in Lambeth and Liverpool by savage cuts in the local government expenditure of authorities which are trying to remedy the damage which she and her Government are doing to inner cities.

The Prime Minister

Government and local government are answerable to the courts, as everyone who believes in the rule of law knows.

Mr. Grylls

If I may revert to the question of pensions, does my right hon. Friend agree that the Government's policy on inflation is the best way of protecting pensioners and their savings, and that we should not be deflected from sticking to that course, which is a way of giving them honest money?

The Prime Minister

I agree wholly with my hon. Friend. There has to be the certainty that Governments will run prudent financial policies and therefore get stability in their financial dealings.

Mr. J. Enoch Powell

When suggestions are again made, as they already have been made this afternoon, that we should return to the miseries and follies of a fixed exchange rate for sterling, will the Prime Minister remain deaf to these unwise promptings?

The Prime Minister

The right hon. Gentleman heard my reply earlier. These suggestions are made regularly. I think that, had we listened to them earlier, we would have found ourselves in some difficulty in view of the fluctuation in exchange rates which inevitably comes through having a currency rather different from those in the rest of Europe. We must continue to take that factor into account.

Q3. Mr. Proctor

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 6 March.

The Prime Minister

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Proctor

When my right hon. Friend meets the National Pensioners Convention this afternoon, will she explain to it that the inflationary policies of Her Majesty's Opposition will crucify the savings of pensioners?

The Prime Minister

Yes, Mr. Speaker, they will do just that. Not only that, but if we ever returned to a period when inflation went up sharply by 25 per cent. or so, to put up the pension by that amount may increase its value for a few days, but it would rapidly lose that value as inflation ate away the increase.

Dr. Owen

Does the Prime Minister draw no lessons from the last couple of months from the way that many pensioners did freeze in the very cold spell when heating allowances were shown to be inadequate? [Interruption.] Hon. Members can jeer but there must be many of their constituents who suffered greviously. Surely the Prime Minister will at least try to change this situation by next year.

The Prime Minister

As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, the Government's record on payments for heating is far better than that of the Government of which he was a member. The facts show that. He cannot possibly get over that, no matter how much he trys to wave it away with his hand. It is because he has not got the answer that he asks such stupid questions.

Mr. Ottaway

My right hon. Friend will be aware that the projected population increase in Britain to the end of the century is 1 million. Is she aware that the population of the world has risen by 1 million in the past five days? What plans does she have to meet that growing demand for the world's resources.

The Prime Minister

The growth of world population is discussed in international forums, particularly when we deal with our aid programmes. My hon. Friend will understand that we try to help those programmes that are designed to reduce the increase.

Mr. Ashton

Is the Prime Minister aware that every hon. Member is being badgered every day about the Shops Bill? In order to influence hon. Members before they vote, will she arrange for the Second Reading of the Bill to take place at 9.30 am on a Sunday, in the same way as we meet on a Friday, and, so that we may experience the effects of the Transport Act 1985, will she arrange for everybody to get here by public transport?

The Prime Minister

The hon. Gentleman makes his point. I think that I have got it. I think that it was in favour of extra choice in Sunday trading.

Mr. Rathbone

Will my right hon. Friend find a moment today, or before the end of the week, to have a word with my right hon. Friend sitting on her right, the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and inquire of him why in the world British farmers are encouraged to grow opium poppies as a cash crop in the face of all the other admirable activities of her Government to fight drug misuse?

The Prime Minister

My right hon. Friend says that he is looking into it. Strenuous efforts are made to ensure that the growth of that crop, necessary for pharmaceutical drugs, cannot be turned to illegal use.

Q4. Mr. Dormand

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 6 March.

The Prime Minister

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Dormand

Will the Prime Minister give urgent attention to the plight of sacked miners? Is she aware that there are 11 from my constituency, 74 from my county of Durham and 520 nationally, that many of them have won their appeals through industrial tribunals and that many have been acquitted by the courts? Before she adopts a Pontius Pilate role, saying that is a matter for the National Coal Board, will she realise that the re-employment of those miners will be the biggest single step that can be taken to begin to restore good relations in the coal industry, and will she bring pressure to bear on the Coal Board to do that?

The Prime Minister

The hon. Gentleman in part anticipated my reply. Of course it is a matter for the NCB, but I understand that one case is before the courts, to which I can make no reference. That is a matter for the courts to decide. The hon. Gentleman is aware that the important thing is to have an efficient coal industry. Productivity has increased enormously. It needs to increase a good deal further, particularly with the fall in the price of oil, which has to compete with coal. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that, despite the improved performance, the taxpayer will still put about £1.5 billion into the coal industry this year.

Q6. Mr. Martin

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 6 March.

The Prime Minister

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Martin

Does the Prime Minister agree that it is a scandal that some pensioners have died from hypothermia, some are living below the poverty line and some cannot turn on the heating because they fear the very high electricity and gas charges? What will the Prime Minister do for our elderly citizens?

The Prime Minister

I gave the figures in answer to another question, but I shall repeat them. When the Labour Government were in power, the amount available for heating addition was £90 million. In 1979 deaths from hypothermia were at the highest level ever. Since then we have increased the amount available for heating to £400 million and there are amounts for severe weather payments. May I also remind the hon. Gentleman that in the lifetime of the Labour. Government the price of electricity went up by 6 per cent. every four months and that under this Government the price of electricity has gone up only by 6 per cent. in three years? So pensioners have had a far better deal under this Government than they ever had under a Labour Government.