Engagements

HC Deb 26 June 1986 vol 100 cc459-62

Q1. Mr. Stan Thorne

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 26 June.

The Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John Biffen)

I have been asked to reply

My right hon. Friend is attending the European Council in the Hague.

Mr. Thorne

The Lord Privy Seal will have seen the statement by the Eminent Persons Group that unless economic measures are taken against South Africa the cost will be counted in millions of lives. What will the Government do about that catastrophe.

Mr. Biffen

Initially we shall discuss this matter with our allies, and that is precisely what is happening at The Hague. We shall determine a policy that takes account not only of our desire for peaceful change in South Africa but of national interest.

Mr. Cash

Will my right hon. Friend note that in a radio broadcast last week an Indian Member of the South African Parliament said of the EPG meeting that those who had made that report should have taken careful note of its effect on the South African blacks and that he resisted the idea of economic sanctions because he believed that they would not be in their interests?.

Mr. Biffen

I take note of what my hon. Friend has said. These are all views that can be tested against the developments that will proceed from the conference at The Hague. We are wise to proceed with a very clear commitment that whatever is done shall be seen to be effective in the context of co-operation with our allies.

Mr. Kinnock

Following that question from the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash), will the right hon. Gentleman also take note that the non-white Members of the so-called tri-cameral Parliament walked out when Botha used the President's council to overrule their objections to the Internal Security Act, which gives totalitarian powers?

I welcome the Government's belated, but none the less significant decision, to meet Oliver Tambo, President of the African National Congress. I invite the right hon. Gentleman to treat the claim by Radio South Africa this morning that this meeting was "a capitulation to terrorism" with the contempt that it deserves. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with me that the reaction of the South African regime to that modest and sensible act of dialogue is evidence of the need to intensify pressure against the South African Government, as that is the only language that Botha will ever understand?

Mr. Biffen

My hon. Friend the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office made quite clear the terms under which the discussions took place with Mr. Tambo. They underline the Government's determination to have a forward policy in these matters, but one which above all must always be related to the test of effectiveness, within which we are co-operating with our colleagues in western Europe, North America and Japan. It is a modest but realistic policy, and stands in total contrast to what the right hon. Gentleman constantly reaffirms, which is his commitment to comprehensive and mandatory sanctions. We believe that that would be disastrous for this country and disastrous for relationships with South Africa.

Mr. Kinnock

I am prepared to accept that the right hon. Gentleman at least wants to see an end to apartheid. Does he think that the steps taken by the Government so far have been, to use his word, effective?

Mr. Biffen

The test of effectiveness is the way in which we can co-operate with all others who are engaged in this enterprise. [Interruption.] Oh yes it is. Once we are picked off one by one, the whole question of effectiveness is a total illusion. The right hon. Gentleman knows in his heart that nobody can stand at either Dispatch Box and say with certainty what are the economic consequences of action that we take and what are the political developments that flow from them.

Mr. Kinnock

If the right hon. Gentleman and the Government want those sanctions to apply to all, will he now tell me why the Government vetoed the mandatory sanctions in the United Nations last week, which was the one measure that would ensure that they applied to all?

Mr. Biffen

Because we think that in the first instance we should move in close co-operation with our allies, and secondly that we should have modest objectives which are attainable.

Mr. John Carlisle

Does my right hon. Friend agree—[Interruption]

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman has as much right to be heard as anybody else.

Mr. Carlisle

Does my right hon. Friend agree that peaceful reform in South Africa is far more likely to take place in conditions of full employment and economic prosperity than in conditions of devastation and destruction, as proposed by the Opposition? Will he get a message to the Prime Minister at The Hague that the Government should be thinking of positive measures to increase investment in South Africa and increase the influence of British companies in that country, so that this initiative will be received by the South African Government as a way of helping them rather than hindering them towards peaceful reform?

Mr. Biffen

The initial task of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary at The Hague is to concert a policy in conjunction with our colleagues which can then be put on an effective basis and which will have clear and determinable objectives. That is a great deal more important than engaging in a moral foghorn approach to the policy, as has been suggested by some Opposition Members.

Q2. Mr. Donald Stewart

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 26 June 1986.

Mr. Biffen

I have been asked to reply.

I refer the right hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Stewart

In the light of a Foreign Office Minister having seen a representative of the ANC, will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to his right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary that the Government should now see a representative of the Palestine Liberation Organisation, since the one-sided attitude of the American President is not conducive to a peace settlement in that area?

Mr. Biffen

The right hon. Gentleman's proposition is based on the assumption that there has never been a meeting of a Minister with the PLO. That is not true. There was a meeting, when my right hon. Friend, now the Home Secretary, urged upon the PLO the virtues of nonviolence.

Q3. Mr. Galley

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 26 June 1986.

Mr. Biffen

I have been asked to reply.

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Galley

Will my right hon. Friend accept a modest criticism, that Ministers could perhaps be even more vigorous in extolling the virtues of the Government? Should they not say, frequently and without apology, that the vast majority of people in this country have never been better off in their lives? Should they not highlight the reductions in nationalised industry prices for the first time in living memory? Should they not emphasise the soundness of the economy, when, in the face of a dramatic oil price reduction it has reacted with hardly a murmur? If the Opposition had been in power they would have been scurrying around like headless chickens looking up the International Monetary Fund and issuing a series of mini budgets. [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. It is selfish to take as long as that.

Mr. Biffen

My hon. Friend makes a perfectly valid point. He argues that the Government have a formidable list of achievements to their credit, and that it lies upon all Tories to be arch-evangelists to ensure that that record is more widely appreciated. We have a period—I do not know how long, but I know that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition hopes that it will he longer rather than shorter — in which to obtain public recognition of those achievements, and we shall do so.

Dr. Owen

Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that the over 9 million people who are living at or below the supplementary benefit level appreciate the policies of the Government? What does he intend to do about that, since there has been a 50 per cent. increase since the Conservative party took office?

Mr. Biffen

I preface my reply to the right hon. Gentleman by saying how much I enjoyed almost all or his remarks about South Africa on the radio this morning, which clearly puts him with us, if not with the Liberal party. [Interruption.] In reply to the substantive question, perhaps I can say that the report by the Low Pay Unit should be taken alongside the fact that under this Government supplementary benefit has increased in real terms, that for those on less than average earnings real take-home pay has increased substantially, and that there has been an increase in the tax threshold which has taken 1.5 million people out of taxation. I believe that any balanced reading of the position would not come to the social conclusions of the lobbyists behind the Low Pay Unit.

Mr. Proctor

rose—

Mr. Speaker

I call Mr. Harvey Proctor.

Dr. Owen

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I shall take it afterwards, at the usual time. Mr. Harvey Proctor.

Dr. Owen

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I shall not take it now. I shall take it afterwards, at the usual time.