HC Deb 11 June 1986 vol 99 cc317-9
8. Mr. Skinner

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when and where Government officials will next meet the African National Congress.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mrs. Lynda Chalker)

As my right hon. and learned Friend told the House on 9 April, contacts between officials and the ANC are continuing as appropriate. The central purpose of such contact is to bring home to the ANC the importance of a suspension of violence on all sides in South Africa in order to promote a constructive dialogue.

Mr. Skinner

Now that the Eminent Persons Group has been bombed out of South Africa by the Botha regime's actions a few weeks ago against three Commonwealth countries, why do not the Government, when they sit down at ministerial level with the ANC—as they should do—call for an unconditional amnesty for Mandela and take a lead on economic sanctions against that unhappy country to stop all the bloodshed and suffering?

Mrs. Chalker

We have unreservedly condemned the raids on the capitals of the three independent Commonwealth countries, especially at a time when the Eminent Persons Group was making progress. We have called for the consideration of dialogue among all parties. It is not for me this afternoon, before publication of the report of the Commonwealth Eminent Persons Group, to make any comments on it. We shall consider the report with the utmost care.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

Apathy.

Mrs. Chalker

There is certainly no apathy in the Government's response.

Mr. Jackson

Does my hon. Friend recognise that the ANC is the oldest political party in South Africa, that it will play a crucial part in the country's future and that it is important that Britain should be in a better position to influence its thinking?

Mrs. Chalker

We have had official-level contacts where appropriate to be in a better position to influence the ANC's thinking. One feature of the ANC is that, although it is made up of people with many different views, if the Communists take it over, Nationalists will be denied the means of political expression. That is why we have called for an end to apartheid. That is why we have supported the work of the Eminent Persons Group, which has gone on so thoroughly over six months.

Mr. Maclennan

Does the Minister agree that in order to promote dialogue between members of the ANC and the authorities in Pretoria the Government should contemplate introducing a ban on commercial air flights to South Africa and should co-ordinate action on that front with other members of the Commonwealth and European Community?

Mrs. Chalker

In our contacts with the ANC and the South African Government we have always sought to bring home to them the fact that continuation of the policies that deny rights to black South Africans, including the lack of freedom for Nelson Mandela, are to be abhorred. Specific bans, such as the hon. Gentleman mentioned, are for consideration in the light of the report of the eminent persons group. We have not committed ourselves and will not do so until the report has been published. It will be published tomorrow and it then needs to be considered, as has been agreed, between the Heads of Government, at the beginning of August.

Mr. Winnick

Is it not a fact that the Eminent Persons Group has come to the conclusion that there is no alternative, in view of what is happening in South Africa, but to apply sanctions? When will the British Government realise that it is not good enough to say that we are against apartheid, and could instead recognise that effective actions must be taken to persuade the South African Government to act in the direction that the majority of hon. Members, including a number of Conservative Members, want? There must be fundamental changes in South Africa, and the longer that is delayed the more bloodshed and tragedy there will be in that country.

Mrs. Chalker

As I and my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State have said on many occasions, we have consistently condemned all the things that the hon. Gentleman has condemned. We have also said that we have argued against collective economic boycotts and things of that kind because experience has shown that they do not work. The question whether any further measures can be taken, in addition to those measures that the United Kingdom has already implemented over the years, has to be considered in the light of experience and of the report. We do not yet have the report.

Mr. Soames

Is my hon. Friend aware that the imposition of sanctions is likely to produce more bloodshed and more anger? In the townships of Uitenhage and New London unemployment is already running at 50 per cent. What possible advantage could accrue to those we wish to help by the imposition of sanctions?

Mrs. Chalker

There is no doubt that there are many views on that subject. We certainly know that sanctions as applied in the past have not given a clear outcome. We wanted to ensure, and continue to do so, that the actions we have taken, such as the arms embargo, the Gleneagles agreement, the European Community measures decided at Luxembourg, the Nassau measures and the stepping up of our own policy work. Those things do work and we should consider only measures that will work. Otherwise, as my hon. Friend said, we shall worsen the situation still further.

Mr. Anderson

When we take over the presidency of the EEC Council of Ministers on 1 July, will we still maintain an objection in principle to meeting the ANC at ministerial level, although we have agreed that other Presidents of the EEC Council should meet them? If we do so will not the British public and our allies not conclude that we are prepared only to engage constructively in dialogue with white South Africans and are not prepared constructively to engage in dialogue with black South Africans?

Mrs. Chalker

The hon. Gentleman's last remark is absolute nonsense. Of course we are prepared constructively to engage in dialogue with black South Africans. We have been working behind the scenes for a dialogue between all the peoples of South Africa and that is what the Commonwealth Eminent Persons Group has worked so hard for. When we take up the presidency of the European Community we shall consider the measures that need to be taken at that time. I am sure that the discussion will go along such lines.

Mr. John Carlisle

Does my hon. Friend agree that the EPG's failure is partly because the Commonwealth Secretariat and its director general have been hand in hand with the ANC, which has no intention of pursuing peaceful reform in South Africa? Will she accept that the Government have no business discussing such matters with terrorists and that she would be better spending her time talking to moderate black leaders in South Africa, such as Chief Buthelezi?

Mrs. Chalker

The earlier part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question was wrong. We shall talk with the full range of black leaders in South Africa, and the best way of doing that must be left to the Government to decide.