HC Deb 10 June 1986 vol 99 cc163-5
7. Mr. Dubs

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what recent representations he has received about resources for universities and polytechnics.

The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Kenneth Baker)

I have received representations from the University Grants Committee, the National Advisory Body for Public Sector Higher Education, institutions of higher education, hon. Members and other bodies and individuals.

Mr. Dubs

Will the Secretary of State confirm that Birkbeck college of the University of London, which caters for 3,000 part-time students, is facing a cut of 35 per cent. in its grant this year — the largest cut facing any university institution in the country? Will he further confirm that it will be virtually impossible for the college to survive a cut of that magnitude? Does he care?

Mr. Baker

Birkbeck's grant for 1987–88 has yet to be determined. The UGC makes a block grant to London university and it is for the university court to decide how that is allocated between its constituent colleges. The UGC's weighting nationally for part-time students is only one of the factors that the court will need to consider. I understand that the UGC is visiting London university tomorrow, and I am quite sure that the funding of Birkbeck college will be one of the issues discussed.

Mr. Cormack

Does my right hon. Friend, who I am sure we all welcome to his post, have confidence in the competence of Britain's vice-chancellors? If so, can he tell us how many of those vice-chancellors are happy with the recent allocations?

Mr. Baker

Yes, I have confidence in some. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name them."] I cannot name them all yet. I do not know them all yet. I know some, and those I have met seem decent chaps. I have already met the Committee of Vice-Chancellors to discuss a matter to which I shall refer in my speech later today. During the next few months I shall be meeting many of them and the UGC to discuss the level of university funding.

Mr. Fatchett

Does the Secretary of State agree that it seems somewhat strange that the allocation of resources by the UGC to university departments is on the basis of research only, and that there is no reference to teaching? Is it not strange that we can have a section of the education system in which there is no regard whatever to the standard of teaching?

Mr. Baker

The recent report of the UGC on the relative merits of various types of research is a very interesting document. There was an exchange earlier about how it should be assessed. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the document does not take account of teaching by universities. That must be considered in the full roundness of the funds that are available to universities.

Mr. Latham

Following the speech by the Under-Secretary of State, in which he said "enough is enough", will my right hon. Friend strongly confirm that the Government attach great importance to the university sector, believe it to be an essential national resource, and want to see it develop effectively?

Mr. Baker

I can certainly confirm that. The universities are asking for level funding for the academic year 1987–88. My predecessor made it clear on 20 May that the Government will consider additional resources if the universities demonstrate their commitment to the pursuit of improvement in academic standards, cost effectiveness and management efficiency. I reconfirm that pledge.

Mr. McNamara

When the Minister is talking to the chaps about the full roundness of the expenditure that he will allow, will he pay special attention to those universities that have suffered particularly badly in the past seven years? Based on the figures given by his hon. Friend, Hull university is minus 22 per cent. in real terms over that period. What will the Minister do to raise the morale of teachers in those universities and encourage students to go to them? Will he recognise that in areas of great depression and high unemployment a university is an enormous economic influence? Any cuts at such universities affect the whole community and not just the university.

Mr. Baker

The hon. Gentleman spoke about the university in his own town and I pay tribute to it. In my discussions with the university vice-chancellors and the UGC over the coming months I shall make it clear that I am committed to a very strong university sector.

Mr. Forman

I welcome my right hon. Friend to his new post. Does he accept that level funding for higher education in the near future has a special meaning for higher education in the sense that there is a relative price effect which requires that higher education should be slightly more generously treated than some other forms of comparable public expenditure?

Mr. Baker

I appreciate that point. It is important to recognise that there are ways in which cost savings can be made without seriously affecting the quality of education that is available.

Mr. Radice

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his new appointment and also on saying that he is committed to a strong higher education sector. Does he agree that strength implies an increase in cash? Expenditure on higher education has been cut in real terms over a number of years and is being threatened with future cuts.

Mr. Baker

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his words of welcome. Over the period of office of this Government there has been an increase of some 80,000 students in higher education. When the hon. Gentleman next takes advertising space to comment upon the Government's higher education policy, perhaps he will say that in the Thatcher years there has been an increase of 80,000 students, and that the Opposition want a return to the Labour years when there was a cut of 2,600.

Mr. Wilson

Will the Secretary of State explain to the House why the English UGC gave the Scottish universities only 40 per cent. of the increase, small though that was, that it gave to the English universities? How does he explain this kind of discrimination?

Mr. Baker

This is a matter that I shall be discussing with the UGC.