HC Deb 23 July 1986 vol 102 cc534-9

Lords amendment: No. 13, in page 10, line 33, after "may" insert with the consent of the Treasury and after consulting the persons mentioned in subsection (3) below as to the inclusion of the area in the order and the features for which conservation, enhancement or protection is desirable".

Mr. Gummer

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to take the following Lords amendments: No. 14, in page 10, line 35, leave out subsection (2).

No. 15, in page 11, line 1, leave out "(2)" and insert "(1)".

No. 16, in page 11, line 35, leave out "are" and insert "is".

No. 17, in page 11, line 36, at end insert— (6A) The Minister shall not make an agreement with any person under subsection (4) above in respect of any land unless that person has certified to the Minister—

  1. (a) that no person other than he is the owner of the land: or
  2. (b) that he has notified any other person who is an owner of the land of his intention to make an agreement under subsection (4) above in respect of the land;
and in this subsection references to the owner of the land are to the estate owner in respect of the fee simple in the land or, in Scotland, the absolute owner of the land within the meaning of section 93 of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act 1949. No. 18, in page 11, line 38, leave out "as respects any land" and insert with any person interested in any land in England or Wales No. 19, in page 11, line 39, leave out from "title" to "and" in line 40 and insert under or from that person No. 20, in page 11, line 41 at end insert— (7A) Where agreements have been made under subsection (4) above with persons having an interest in land in a designated area the Minister shall arrange for the effect on the area as a whole of the performance of the agreements to be kept under review and shall from time to time publish such information as he considers appropriate about those effects.". No. 21, after clause 13, insert the following new clause—

Supplementary provisions regarding agreements under section 13(4) in Scotland —(1) Where a person having an interest of a kind described in section 13(4) above in land in Scotland, being an interest which enables him to bind the land, enters into an agreement under that subsection—

  1. (a) where the land is registered in the Land Register of Scotland, the agreement may be registered in that Register;
  2. (b) in any other case the agreement may be recorded in the appropriate Division of the General Register of Sasines.
(2) An agreement registered or recorded under subsection (1) above shall be enforceable at the instance of the Secretary of State against persons deriving title to the land (including any person acquiring right to a tenancy by assignation or succession) from the person who entered into the agreement; provided that such an agreement shall not be enforceable against a third party who shall have in good faith and for value acquired right (whether completed by infeftment or not) to the land prior to the agreement being registered or recorded as aforesaid, or against any person deriving title from such third party. (3) Notwithstanding the terms of any agreement registered or recorded under subsection (1) above, the parties to the agreement or any persons deriving title from them may at any time agree to terminate it; and such an agreement to terminate it shall be registered or recorded in the same manner as was the original agreement. (4) A grazings committee appointed under section 24 of the Crofters (Scotland) Act 1955 may, with the consent of a majority of the crofters ordinarily resident in the township, enter into an agreement under section 13(4) above in relation to any part of the common grazings and may agree to the revocation or variation of any such agreement, and such agreement, revocation or variation shall be binding upon all their successors. (5) In the case of an agreement of a kind referred to in subsection (4) above, the payments by the Secretary of State shall be made to 'the grazings committee and shall be applied by them either—
  1. (a) by division among the crofters who share in the common grazings in proportion to their respective rights therein; or
  2. (b) subject to subsection (6) below, in carrying out works for the improvement of the common grazings or the fixed equipment required in connection therewith.
 (6) A grazings committee to whom such a payment as is referred to in subsection (5) above has been made and who are proposing to apply the payment in carrying out works in accordance with paragraph (b) of that subsection shall give notice in writing to each crofter sharing in the common grazings of their proposals: and any such crofter may within one month of the date of such notice make representations in respect of the proposals to the Crofters Commission who may approve them with or without modifications or reject them. (7) "Crofter" and other expressions used in any of subsections (4) to (6) above and in section 3 of the Crofters (Scotland) Act 1955 have the same meaning in this section as they have in that section as read with section 15(6) of the Crofters (Scotland) Act 1961.".

Mr. Gummer

Amendments Nos. 16, 18. 19 and 21 are technical in nature. During our earlier debate on environmentally sensitive areas, I gave various commitments to the House. Those commitments have been built into the clause. Amendments Nos. 13, 14 and 15 seek to allay fears that the Treasury would have a power of veto over the designation of ESAs. We had a merry debate about that. We heard a great deal of the abilities or, very often, the disabilities of Treasury Ministers to make such judgments. However I tried to explain that that was the phrase always used, it struck an evil note, and 1 was concerned that this series of propositions, which has been so widely welcomed, should not be soured in that way.

I must be perfectly frank and say that the amendments do not materially alter the arrangements for consultation with the Treasury. They more positively and accurately reflect the extent of the Treasury's role. It is clear that the Treasury is concerned with the financial provision, not with vetoing the environmental case for any particular area. I hope that this will set at rest minds which had been considerably stirred on this matter.

2.45 am

Amendment No. 17 places a duty on the Minister not to enter into an environmentally sensitive area agreement with someone other than the owner of the land, unless that owner has been notified. We agreed that we would do that, but it seemed sensible to have statutory backing.

I turn to amendment No. 20. It is important that the Government and the public know how ESAs are working. In the discussions on the Bill, I made a point of saying how important it was that the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food should be involved in the direction of ESAs and that this should not be farmed out to anyone else. We wanted those concerned to learn from experience particular conservation needs because that would in some way counter the belief still held in some quarters that the Ministry did not have that kind of practical day-to-day experience. This emphasises the Government's commitment to effective implementation of ESAs. We have made provision for reports to be published on how the scheme operates. I am sure that they will be reviewed with great interest.

Once the Bill receives the Royal Assent, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will consult my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment on a list of ESAs, as the Bill requires. That cannot be done until the Bill is passed. We plan to announce our decision on this as early as possible, but it will be obvious that that cannot be before the House rises. It is obviously important that the announcement should be made, and we shall try to make it relatively soon after the House rises.

In the circumstances, I hope that the alterations. all of which move in the direction of helping those hon. Members with fears about the presentation of the provisions, will enable this clause, of all clauses, to go forward with the united support of all who want greater concern shown for the environment.

Mr. John

I thank the Minister especially for the monitoring provision. It is a welcome advance. The right hon. Gentleman wants to set our minds at rest. I think we all want to do that at about a quarter to three in the morning. Although in presentation the Treasury's role is much diminished, in practice I fear that it will be as baneful as ever. I am not totally reassured on that point.

I thank the Minister for stating his intention to issue the list of ESAs. I should like to press him on some further points. We shall go into the programme of drawing up the detailed management scheme in consultation with the Countryside Commission and the Nature Conservancy Council. How long does the Minister expect the process to take? On 12 June, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, answering my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies), said that he expected the first payments under the scheme to be made in 1987, with the date being somewhat imprecise. Can the right hon. Gentleman now announce a more specific time?

What sort of payments will be made? Will they be made on the single flat-rate basis, or will there be different grants for different environmental purposes? Will the Minister be more explicit than the Parliamentary Secretary, whose absence we regret, on 8 July when we were discussing agriculture structures? The hon. Lady was pressed by my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) as to whether the additional £1.5 million available for ESAs, which was likely to come from the Commission, was going to be new money to be added to the £6 million already committed to ESAs in this country or whether it was going to be used by the same baneful Treasury as a sort of contribution towards reducing its net expenditure. We very much want the £1.5 million to be added to the £6 million already committed, which is little enough. I should be grateful if the Minister would confirm that.

Mr. Livsey

We welcome wholeheartedly the establishment of ESAs. The element of voluntary accession by farmers and the payments concerned are extremely helpful. However, I would like to back up what the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. John) has slid. We would like more information about the type of payments to be made and whether they will follow the pattern that has occurred in Norfolk, for example, and what alternatives to them will be forthcoming.

We hope that there will be sufficient ADAS staff to administer the payments after what has happened in clause 1 of the Bill. It is all very well to say that they will be trained, but will they be there in sufficient numbers to carry out the job?

In part of the Bill referring to national parks —although it impinges on ESAs — we are concerned in Wales about the vetting of capital grants and whether there are implications for the expansion of farming enterprises with those grants. We fear that there will be a regression by those vetting the grants so that farmers will not have the opportunity to expand their businesses in the way that they might be able to do outside national parks. That is of considerable concern in some of the national park areas.

Mr. Maclennan

My questions arise on amendment No. 21 which relates to Scotland and deals with the entitlements of those who acquire land on which an agreement has been entered by the original owner. First, is it the Government's intention that all agreements should be registered with the Land Register, or the appropriate division of the General Register of Sasines, before they enter into a final commitment? Amendment No. 21 appears to provide that someone who has acquired title to land which is unregistered shall not be deemed to be bound by the agreement without notice. That might defeat the purpose of the agreement and of the Government's policy underlying it. I hope that the Minister may feel able to say something about whether it is felt appropriate, when entering into an agreement, to seek to obtain the assurance of the farmer that it will be registered. It would seem desirable to put subsequent tenants of the land on notice in that way.

My second point relates to crofting. There is a certain obscurity in the language. This is really a Committee point, but, unfortunately, we are not having a Committee stage on this amendment. Under the provisions of the proposed subsection (3) of the new clause contained in amendment No. 21.

parties to the agreement… may at any time agree to terminate it". That does not appear to be the case with respect to crofters who, according to the proposed subsection (4), are subject to the provision that such agreement … shall be binding upon all their successors. That is, to the successors of the grazings committee.

I may have misunderstood this point. It looks as though it is an agreement that operates in perpetuity for crofters, but not in respect of other parties. This point may be difficult for the Minister to answer, and in any event the amendment is not capable of being changed. I should be satisfied if the Minister would prefer to write to me about it.

Mr. Gummer

With the leave of the House. I cannot claim to be expert enough about the crofters to give the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) exactly the answer that he would like, but my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has said that he will write to the hon. Gentleman on that point.

Registration depends on the agreement, because some agreements, for example to build a wall, do not need to be registered. Others, of a longer-lasting kind, may be registered, as the Bill makes clear. I assure the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. John) that I am wary about talking about EEC funding only because we are discussing a proposal that has not yet got to a final state. I took part, as he will imagine, given the circumstances of the presidency, in detailed discussion on this, and I do not yet want to say anything about it.

I shall be looking at the matter carefully, because the EEC proposals sometimes mean that they cannot be used in the same way as the present structure of the ESAs. As we are taking the lead on this—my right hon. Friend the Minister first pressed it on the Commission — we have implemented it early. We shall want to watch this carefully, and I do not see that it has a direct bearing on what we propose to do.

I cannot continue to go into more detailed discussion on the type of payments, because we have sought in our discussions so far, although they are not complete, to look at the various areas that we might choose for this in an effort to pick areas that offer a wide range of experience. We discussed this in Committee, and both sides were agreed. As that is the case, I can envisage that the types of payment would not always be the same. We see this as experimental, and that point has been generally accepted.

Consultations with the NCC and the Countryside Commission, and the consequential timing of introducing ESA arrangements have already taken place, and we hope that it may he possible to introduce the arrangements early in 1987. Our aim is to get this under way as rapidly as possible because that would be the wish of the House. I shall not give any particular month, but we are doing this as rapidly as possible.

We have sufficient A DAS staff. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Livsey) keeps suggesting that we do not. He is as wrong on this — this is an uncontroversial statement—as he is on so many other things. I confirm entirely the assurances given in another place on this. It is important that it is realised that we put high priority on what we are trying to do here, and I am sure that that is in accordance with what the House would like.

The only other point of consequence that should be answered is that in dealing with these environmentally sensitive areas, we have to ensure that everybody can learn what is going on. That is why the reporting arrangements are being put into the Bill, and why I am pleased about the welcome given by the hon. Member for Pontypridd. The more we know about the success or failure of particular parts of it, the more we shall be able to learn about the future. This is the beginning, rather than the end, of the process.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords amendments agreed to, some with Special Entry.

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