HC Deb 21 July 1986 vol 102 cc95-107

Lords amendment: No. 3, in page 3, line 28, at end insert— (3) In performing his duty under subsection (2) above to exercise functions assigned to him in the manner which he considers is best calculated to protect the interests of consumers of gas supplied through pipes in respect of the quality of the gas supply services provided, the Secretary of State or, as the case may be, the Director shall take into account, in particular, the interests of those who are disabled or of pensionable age.

Read a Second time.

Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

I beg to move, as an amendment to the Lords amendment, at end add `or who are in receipt of any social security benefit'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendment No. 5, in page 5, line 44, at end insert— (aa) such conditions requiring arrangements to be made with respect to the provision of special services for meeting the needs of consumers of gas supplied through pipes who are disabled or of pensionable age as appear to the Secretary of State to be requisite or expedient having regard to those duties; and, as an amendment to the proposed amendment, after `age', insert `or who are in receipt of any social security benefit'.

Mr. Rowlands

These amendments amend interesting and important amendments made in the other place. Lords amendments Nos. 3 and 5 go some way to meet the demands made from all parts of the House from the beginning of our proceedings on the Bill that we should seek ways and means to improve the safeguards for the most disadvantaged consumers and to protect their interests wherever possible after privatisation. Therefore, we welcome the Lords amendments, but believe that they can go a lot further.

We also welcome one or two other amendments made in the other place, particularly the letter of assurance that was published in answer to the planted written question on 17 July about the various assurances given by the chairman of British Gas. I notice that all these assurances —it is important that they be clearly stated—last only as long as certain conditions in the licence. If those were removed, the assurances would fall. It is rather important that we remind ourselves of that point.

Opposition Members welcome the Government's climbdown on standing charges. The original draft proposals were revealed in The Guardian just before publication of the Bill. They suggested that standing charges, under the code, could be raised by the RPI plus. There was some alteration later with the substitution of the famous phrase "best endeavours" to maintain standing charges. I recall with interest the Under-Secretary defending those words, using his law books to tell us that they were just as good as "must", "have to be" or "essential". We are relieved to see that he has cast aside his law books and replaced them by plain, good, English.

We have at least a concession from the Government, and one for which we fought in Committee. The Committee stage would have been shorter and less arduous if those modest concessions had been made then. We are relieved that gone from the conditions on standing charges are the weasel words "best endeavours". Now, British Gas will have to ensure that any increase is no higher than the RPI.

These amendments help and assist the most disadvantaged gas consumers — the elderly, the poorest consumers and the disabled — although the best way to do so is to keep gas prices down as much as possible. It is worthwhile reminding the House of the aim of the Bill. It is paving the way for the sale of British Gas. We have discovered that the Government will raid the accounts of British Gas to the tune of £2.5 billion, after having taken nearly £500 million from the gas consumers through the gas levy, but the company will still be presented to the stock market with a huge and healthy profit.

The best way to help the poorest consumers is not by offering discount shares to some customers but by offering a lower gas tariff to all customers. Given the money that is available, which can be taken out of the British Gas Corporation, the levy and the dividend raid on the company's account before privatisation, there is a strong case for an alternative to discount share buying. We recognise that the argument is not only about tariffs and prices but about the service provided. These amendments deal with such services.

We welcome amendments Nos. 3 and 5 amending clauses 4 and 7 to take into account the interests of those who are disabled or of pensionable age. The case that was argued both here and in the other place by Lord Stoddard of Swindon and others was that we should ensure that there are special provisions for the elderly, the poor and the disabled, not only on gas tariffs and prices but on services. The additional provisions offered in amendments Nos. 3 and 5, particularly in the new conditions attached to the licence, could go further and be extended to at least one other category of consumer —those in receipt of social security benefit.

The words in amendments Nos. 3 and 5 to take into account the interests of those who are disabled or of pensionable age would he of a general character if there were not the benefit of a new draft condition attached to the licence which spells out specifically what they mean. I ask the House to take the amendments with the new conditions that have been proposed.

To give meaning to the new provisions in clauses 4 and 7, four special services will be offered as a condition of the licence. I have with me the form that sets them out. They include: examining free of charge … the safety of gas appliances … providing where practicable special controls and adaptors … and prepayment meters … providing special means of identifying officers authorised by the Supplier; and giving advice on the use of gas fittings. Those special services will be placed in the new conditions, thereby giving meaning to amendments Nos. 3 and 5. I hope that the Minister will, in a spirit of generosity, accept our case that at least two of those four special categories could and should apply to those in receipt of social security benefit.

8.30 pm

The two that apply are those that offer the opportunity of examining free of charge the safety of gas appliances and of giving advice on the use of gas and gas fittings. The amendment paves the way for additional changes to the draft condition, which is being introduced by the Government, in order to extend some of the provisions and special services to the poorest customers who do not fall into the two specific categories of being elderly or disabled. Two of the recommendations in the conditions apply specifically to the elderly and disabled, and could and should be extended to the poorest gas consumers.

We know that neglecting the safety of gas appliances is a function not just of age or disability but often of finance. If one cannot afford to call out a gas fitter or to have a gas appliance examined, the dangers can be devastating. Thus, that is one of the four draft conditions that could easily apply to those in receipt of social security benefit, who are among the poorest of gas consumers.

Advice on the use of gas and gas fittings is as of much significance to the poorest gas consumer in our society as to the elderly or disabled. I do not detract from the value and importance of those special services to those two categories of customers, but I cannot understand the logic of not extending them to those poorest consumers who are neither elderly nor disabled.

I shall be interested to hear the Minister's reply to those points. I anticipate that he may say that a provision covering the efficient use of appliances has already been laid down in general terms in condition 13. But that could also apply to the elderly and the disabled. However, the Government have rightly and understandably sought to specify some special services which, although covered by the generic provisions of condition 13, should also be highlighted in an additional condition. We believe that the best way of assisting the poorest customer, whether elderly, disabled or simply poor, is by maintaining the lowest possible tariffs and, most importantly, by offering a range of special services to the poorest of customers. It is in that spirit of generosity that we urge the Minister to respond and to join us in supporting the amendment.

Mrs. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley)

I rise to support the amendments, although I do so without much heart, because throughout our lengthy discussions on the Bill in Committee the Government turned a deaf ear to our pleas on behalf of some of the poorest consumers in our society. It became especially clear throughout our discussions on the Bill that the Government's plan to sell off British Gas to pay for tax cuts is a gigantic financial swindle. The public will undoubtedly be the losers and only the rich will benefit. Having said that, we must, even at this late stage, hope that the Government will be swayed by our arguments to try to protect some of those who will be most affected by some of the things that we predict will happen as a result of privatisation.

During the past decade the poor have suffered most from increases in fuel costs. They tend to live in bad housing, often with poor insulation. They often have damp houses that suffer from condensation. They can seldom choose the heating that they would like, and they often land up with expensive and inefficient systems. Those who can least afford it are thus forced to pay the most to keep warm. That leads to a failure to pay bills and to misery. In Committee, we gave the Government many examples of acute cases of poverty. I quoted at some length from the many reports carried out by welfare organisations on the effect of fuel poverty on people in Britain.

From the Government's own figures it seems that 60 per cent. of all people on supplementary benefit and 90 per cent. of pensioners on supplementary benefit now receive a heating addition. That makes the case for the amendments. Every winter, especially last winter, people have died from hypothermia. An increasing number of elderly people and young children die. They are often the children of families living on social security benefit. All of them are at risk, because they or their families cannot afford the fuel necessary to keep warm. Government policies, as enunciated today, will undoubtedly increase that possibility.

The causes of fuel poverty must be tackled by other changes in policy, such as housing and income support as well as fuel pricing policies. Many people simply do not have the financial resources to heat their homes properly. Fuel poverty is a real and growing problem, and the Government cannot get away from that. If the Government make special provision for the elderly and the disabled, whom we know need increased heating because of their problems, how can they exclude people on social security benefit?

From evidence produced in 1982, it seems that more than 50 per cent. of disconnections occurred in households with children under 10 years old. Of the households disconnected, two-fifths had a head of family unemployed and more than 10 per cent. had a head of family who was sick or disabled. We have been given much evidence from welfare organisations, which has shown clearly that there is a vital need for proper regulation of the relationship between the fuel supplier and its customers. Therefore, I support the amendment.

Mr. Ashdown

I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) whose work on fuel poverty is respected on both sides of the House and whose contribution to the Bill in that respect is valuable, and is recognised as such by all hon. Members. The hon. Lady made some points about hypothermia to which I shall return shortly. I shall put a slightly different emphasis on those points, but I agree that the amendment and clauses 3 and 5 are worth supporting. We shall certainly support them tonight. That was the only major concession that was wrung out of the Government. They gave it unwillingly, and struggled until the last moment. It is an official indictment of the Government that they gave it unwillingly and were forced to do so only because they recognised the argument in the last analysis.

I join the hon. Member for Cynon Valley in welcoming clauses 3 and 5. I do so unenthusiastically for two reasons. First, I believe strongly that the appropriate mechanism for assisting the disadvantaged in a civilised nation is so to construct things that they do not need any charitable or special provision. People should be able to live ordinary lives on an ordinary and dignified basis.

The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) made an important point when he said that the best way to assist the aged, the disabled and those who were disadvantaged for other reasons would be to provide a sufficiently low gas tariff. Overall that is the best way to assist. Another way would be to pay a decent pension so that people would not have to rely on charity, on special clauses in Bills or the hand out of free bus passes. There is a psychological attitude towards our elderly and disadvantaged people which unhappily ghettoises large numbers of people according to their disadvantages and age. That prevents them from taking their full part as members of society. That is my first reason for being unenthusiastic about the way in which we have arrived at this point.

My second reason is that once again the Government amendment is as minimal as they can allow. It uses phrases such as "take into account". One wonders why the Government were not able to include phrases such as "the needs of old-age pensioners or the disabled". Goodness knows that need is powerful and well enough established. I pay tribute to my predecessor the former Liberal candidate in the Yeovil constituency because he placed me in a position to win that seat. Much more importantly, he and his wife discovered the phenomenon which we now know as hypothermia. Many thousands of people owe him a great debt for discovering that phenomenon.

As the hon. Member for Cynon Valley has said, since 1975 some 12,000 people in Britain have died from hypothermia, an average of 1,230 a year. I disagree with the hon. Member for Cynon Valley only on the matter of emphasis, because, while there is no doubt that there are well known and documented cases of young children in that tragic and awful litany of unnecessary deaths, the vast preponderance of those cases is among the aged. Four died in my constituency, not last winter mercifully but the winter before. That is a disgrace in a civilised society. However, all these points were made at length in Committee and I have no wish to delay proceedings now. Suffice it to say that, because the vast preponderance of that disgraceful total of 12,000 dying from hypothermia are the aged and among that total are a number of disabled, it is incumbent on us to recognise that there ought to be a specific recognition of the special needs of the aged.

The clause should recognise the needs of the aged and the disabled and ought to take into account the needs of those on supplementary benefit. The Government will not do that. Because the Opposition amendment would strengthen the clause, I have no objection to it. I support it perhaps more enthusiastically in clause 7 than in clause 4, but we shall vote in favour of both amendments because at least they broaden the scope, recognise the problem and strengthen the clause.

I turn now to the matter of recognition which is not voluntary but mandatory. In another place Lord Diamond, on behalf of the alliance, tried to introduce an amendment with almost exactly the same wording in line 38, page 5. This amendment is in line 44. That amendment would have made the requirements mandatory. Some of us believe that the amendment at present allows it to apply on a rather more voluntary basis. I was reassured to read in the report of the proceedings in the other place that the Government said that in their view this amendment, together with other amendments, make this requirement mandatory. It would be of benefit to the House if the Minister would confirm that point. I repeat that this amendment lays down a duty which is not voluntary but mandatory. If he will give us precisely the argument for that, it will go on the record and then there can be no doubt.

8.45 pm
Mr. Pike

I support the amendment because it is probably one of the most important improvements of the Bill. However, it could go a little further. That is why we are moving our amendment and a similar one to a later clause in the Bill. People on social security benefit are among the most deprived and poorest in Britain. Some people who are unable to go out because of poverty require more heat in their homes than people who are able to go out during the day. That also applies to the unemployed, especially in winter because they find it difficult to go out in bad weather.

We all know that any form of heating is expensive. My hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) and others of my hon. Friends amply illustrated in Committee the fact that many people in the categories that we are discussing often had a choice between food and heating. It is atrocious that in 1986 people should have to choose between those two basic necessities of life. An announcement made in the House earlier today will worsen the situation. Last year, one of my constituents had to make a choice every weekend between food and heat.

The complications of the exceptionally severe weather payments make it far too difficult for many people to acquire the benefit to which they are entitled. Many people dare not run their heating systems at a sufficient level because they are terrified about having to obtain the benefit to which they might be entitled under the scheme. In many instances they do not know about the scheme until it is too late. We are talking not just about the elderly or the disabled, although I recognise and fully support the needs of those two categories.

At the moment I am dealing with the family whose gas was cut off last winter. They owe about £340 and the gas board has made it clear that, unless the family pays off the arrears at £10 a week until the debt is repaid, the gas supply will not be reconnected. There are children in that family which is on supplementary benefit. It means that, with repayments of £10 a week for 34 weeks, that family will not have gas heating next winter. The amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) is an important addition to the Bill. If the Government care or have any sympathy for the poorest members in our society, they will accept it.

Mr. Wilson

I support the amendment because it is a valuable reflection of the importance that the Opposition parties at least attach to fuel poverty. It is recognised that many people die because of a lack of adequate income with which to buy heat, and that is compounded by the fact that many such people live in houses with inbuilt ventilation. The blocks are porous and the windows do not fit and heat cannot be contained in the building. Compared with Scandinavia, we treat the matter of heating for our people in a scandalous fashion.

Mr. Wrigglesworth

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is not just hypothermia, but the fear and dread of the expense of heating from which old people suffer?

Mr. Wilson

I agree with the hon. Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Wrigglesworth). I have had discussions with the Department of Health and Social Security about the possibilities of establishing a cold climate allowance. One of the answers is that spending does not necessarily reflect the severity of climate. Indeed, some family surveys show that. What it means is that, in many areas, the elderly simply do not use fuel. They are frightened to use fuel and, therefore, live in a colder environment. That has been documented many times by medical people who admit that hypothermia exists.

I commend the Lords amendment and hope that, even at the last moment, the Government will accept it. The Labour party's amendment to it recognises the need to cater for the vast numbers of people who receive supplementary benefit. A fuel poverty document that I received today said that 5 million people receive supplementary benefit. I am not sure whether the family of four is still the unit, but, even with families of three, that means that 15 million people live or depend upon supplementary benefit. They have insufficient money on which to live.

In considering the privatisation of British Gas, we must examine what can be done. Since I have commended the Labour party, perhaps I should criticise it for what the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) said about a winter premium of £5 a week. Of course, that is a flat rate. Whether people live at the Oval or in Shetland, regardless of climate, they will receive the same sum. If they must die because the payment is not related to climate, that is just too bad. I hope that those Labour Members present will recognise the justice of the case for climatically adjusted allowances and press the hon. Member for Oldham, West into action.

If we change the way in which British Gas is financed and run, problems could arise in relation to gas supply. I have a copy of the 1985–86 annual report of the Gas Consumers Council for Scotland, which the Government will have found uncomfortable reading. Perhaps that is one reason why the consumers councils are being abolished. It states: One of the most worrying trends in the past year has been the steep increase in the number of people being cut off because they could not pay their gas bills. Disconnections have risen from 2,249 to 2,843, an increase of nearly 21 per cent. over 1984–85. We have continued to examine a sample of cases each month.

The council exonerates British Gas on the matter because it has followed the code of practice. However, the council says that the code of practice is probably at fault and must be amended. It says that there is no satisfactory explanation for this increase other than the prevailing economic climate. For many families without an adequate income, fuel debt will increase or they will be cut off.

In those circumstances, does the Bill do enough, even if amended by the Lords, to take account of that fact? I do not believe that it does, in two respects. First, in relation to maintenance, the Government have announced that they intend to restrict the number of single payments that can be made, sometimes for the purchase arid sometimes for the maintenance of equipment. There is a danger factor associated with gas which is not necessarily associated with electricity. Danger could arise if people bought stoves that were not properly maintained and could not afford to get them repaired because of a lack of single payments. If heating allowances are phased out, as they will be, there will be more poverty and more likelihood of danger.

In the latter circumstances, it would be useful if British Gas made available an advisory service that would allow those in receipt of supplementary benefit to obtain help and advice without having to pay through the nose for it. Frequently, they get no help or advice at all. Advice on heating, combined with the payments for insulation which, thankfully, the Government intend to retain, could save many families from hypothermia and from being cut off. It would be easy to set up such an advisory service and maintenance checks.

I hope that the Government will accept the amendment moved by the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) calling for the inclusion of those on supplementary benefit.

Mr. Buchanan-Smith

As with the previous group of amendments, I am grateful to the House for welcoming the changes that were made in the House of Lords —changes and amendments which I shall commend to the House. But we are now debating the two amendments tabled by the Opposition.

The remarks of the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) were strange. He paid respect, fairly, to the amendment and to the need to help those in receipt of social security, but he addressed almost all his remarks to the problems of the elderly. I refer him to amendment No. 5, which contains words almost identical to the ones that he used about meeting the needs of consumers who are elderly and disabled. He might have showed some graciousness and accepted that we have incorporated precisely what he wants.

The hon. Gentleman also asked me whether the provision is mandatory. Given the responsibility that is laid on the Secretary of State, I cannot envisage circumstances in which he could properly omit a condition in the licence on special services to the elderly and the disabled. Once that is included in the licence, if the public gas supplier breaches the conditions of the licence it will be extremely serious, as the hon. Gentleman will know from other parts of the Bill, and various matters will flow from it. The licence can be enforced and certain steps taken if the public gas supplier is in breach of the licence. The real power lies in ensuring that that is done.

The main reason why the Lords amendments concentrated on the elderly and the disabled is that those categories are unlikely to be able to examine their appliances in the same way as a fit and able-bodied person could. That is why we decided to offer those special services only to the elderly and disabled. The provision will not relate to financial means. We are much more concerned with the physical ability of particular classes of consumer to be able to perform tasks that are necessary in the interests of safety — for example, the problems that an elderly or disabled person has in being able to go for advice to a gas showroom. Such people may be confined to the home. It is on that that the amendments from the other place concentrate. Other services are available, but people who want to take advantage of them do have to go to a showroom. Thus, we have limited the amendments from the other place to those who are old, which may mean they are immobile, and who have problems with understanding how appliances work —problems which those in receipt of social security payments will not necessarily suffer from.

9 pm

Mr. Rowlands

I am worried about the drift of the Minister's argument. It is not only the old and disabled who should not be tampering with appliances in order to decide whether they are safe. Safety is not just a problem for the old and disabled; it is a matter of knowledge. If the Minister is making the point that we are specialising in giving advice to the elderly and disabled at home, he should amend the draft condition.

Mr. Buchanan-Smith

The draft condition is adequate and covers advice to be given. That can be understood from any reasonable reading. That is something that British Gas has done up to now for the elderly.

I understand a great deal of what Opposition Members have said about financial help, although they sometimes overdramatise. Financial help is in a different category from what we are seeking to do relating to services. I remind the House that for pensioners the weekly scale rates for help for heating have increased by more than 6 per cent. in real terms since 1978.

For those who require more general help for heating we have increased the size of the heating additions and their availability. It is significant that they are now worth £140 million more in real terms than they were in 1979. Therefore, the Government have taken positive action to give financial help where it is needed, to which so much reference has been made. The Government need no lectures from the Opposition on the problems of those on lower incomes who need help for heating additions and in answering those needs. We have done that on a scale far greater than at any time when the Labour party had responsibility for that.

The services available to the two categories of consumers to whom the amendments from the other place apply, which I commend to the House, meet our objectives. The Government not only recognise the need for financial help but have responded to it in a real way, which the Labour party never did when it had the power to do so. I ask the House to reject the amendments to the amendments.

Mr. Rowlands

We shall be pressing our amendments, first, because the Minister ended on a controversial note. It is little wonder that the Government have had to pay more out in heating allowances when the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as Secretary of State for Energy, for three successive years, demanded that gas prices should rise by 10 per cent. above the rate of inflation—an increase of 100 per cent. in domestic gas prices.

Secondly, I did not find convincing his arguments against extending the special provisions for those of state pensionable age and the disabled—which we welcome— to the poorest customers in our communities, in particular, advice and assistance on the safety of gas appliances and on the use of gas. Both are vital to the poorest consumers as well as to the elderly and disabled. It is for those reasons that we shall press our amendments tonight.

Question put, That the amendment to the Lords amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 198, Noes 245.

Division No. 270] [9.4 pm
AYES
Alton, David Dormand, Jack
Anderson, Donald Douglas, Dick
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Dubs, Alfred
Ashdown, Paddy Duffy, A. E. P.
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.
Ashton, Joe Eadie, Alex
Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) Eastham, Ken
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE)
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Evans, John (St. Helens N)
Barnett, Guy Ewing, Harry
Barron, Kevin Faulds, Andrew
Beckett, Mrs Margaret Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Bell, Stuart Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Fisher, Mark
Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) Flannery, Martin
Bidwell, Sydney Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Blair, Anthony Forrester, John
Boyes, Roland Foster, Derek
Bray, Dr Jeremy Foulkes, George
Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E) Fraser, J. (Norwood)
Brown, Hugh D. (Proven) Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald
Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) Garrett, W. E.
Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) George, Bruce
Buchan, Norman Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Caborn, Richard Gould, Bryan
Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) Gourlay, Harry
Campbell, Ian Hamilton, James (M'well N)
Campbell-Savours, Dale Hamilton, W. W. (Fife Central)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Hancock, Michael
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Hardy, Peter
Clarke, Thomas Harman, Ms Harriet
Clay, Robert Harrison, Rt Hon Walter
Clelland, David Gordon Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith
Clwyd, Mrs Ann Heffer, Eric S.
Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S) Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)
Cohen, Harry Home Robertson, John
Coleman, Donald Hoyle, Douglas
Conlan, Bernard Hughes, Dr Mark (Durham)
Cook, Robin F. (Livingston) Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Corbett, Robin Hughes, Roy (Newport East)
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)
Craigen, J. M. Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Cunliffe, Lawrence Janner, Hon Greville
Dalyell, Tam John, Brynmor
Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'I) Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Deakins, Eric Kennedy, Charles
Dewar, Donald Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Dobson, Frank Kirkwood, Archy
Lambie, David Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)
Lamond, James Robertson, George
Leadbitter, Ted Rogers, Allan
Leighton, Ronald Rooker, J. W.
Lewis, Terence (Worsley) Ross, Ernest (Dundee W)
Litherland, Robert Rowlands, Ted
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) Sedgemore, Brian
Lofthouse, Geoffrey Sheerman, Barry
Loyden, Edward Sheldon, Rt Hon R.
McCartney, Hugh Shields, Mrs Elizabeth
McDonald, Dr Oonagh Shore, Rt Hon Peter
McKay, Allen (Penistone) Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood)
McKelvey, William Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE)
MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Silkin, Rt Hon J.
McTaggart, Robert Skinner, Dennis
Madden, Max Smith, C.(lsl'ton S & F'bury)
Marek, Dr John Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'ds E)
Marshall, David (Shettleston) Snape, Peter
Martin, Michael Soley, Clive
Mason, Rt Hon Roy Spearing, Nigel
Maynard, Miss Joan Steel, Rt Hon David
Meacher, Michael Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)
Michie, William Stott, Roger
Mikardo, Ian Strang, Gavin
Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Straw, Jack
Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Thompson, J. (Wansbeck)
Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) Thorne, Stan (Preston)
Nellist, David Tinn, James
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Torney, Tom
O'Brien, William Wainwright, R.
O'Neill, Martin Wallace, James
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Park, George Wareing, Robert
Parry, Robert White, James
Patchett, Terry Wigley, Dafydd
Pavitt, Laurie Williams, Rt Hon A.
Pendry, Tom Wilson, Gordon
Penhaligon, David Winnick, David
Pike, Peter Woodall, Alec
Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) Wrigglesworth, Ian
Randall, Stuart Young, David (Bolton SE)
Raynsford, Nick
Redmond, Martin Tellers for the Ayes:
Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S) Mr. Don Dixon and
Richardson, Ms Jo Mr. Derek Fatchett.
NOES
Adley, Robert Bruinvels, Peter
Aitken, Jonathan Bryan, Sir Paul
Alexander, Richard Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A.
Amess, David Buck, Sir Antony
Ancram, Michael Budgen, Nick
Ashby, David Bulmer, Esmond
Aspinwall, Jack Burt, Alistair
Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H. Butler, Rt Hon Sir Adam
Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) Butterfitl, John
Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) Carlisle, John (Luton N)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Baldry, Tony Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (W'ton S)
Batiste, Spencer Carttiss, Michael
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Cash, William
Bellingham, Henry Chapman, Sydney
Bendall, Vivian Chope, Christopher
Benyon, William Churchill, W. S.
Bevan, David Gilroy Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Biffen, Rt Hon John Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)
Blackburn, John Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)
Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter Clegg, Sir Walter
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Cockeram, Eric
Boscawen, Hon Robert Coombs, Simon
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia Cope, John
Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n) Corrie, John
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) Couchman, James
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Cranborne, Viscount
Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard Critchley, Julian
Brandon-Bravo, Martin Crouch, David
Bright, Graham Currie, Mrs Edwina
Brinton, Tim Dickens, Geoffrey
Brittan, Rt Hon Leon Dorrell, Stephen
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) Dover, Den
du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)
Dunn, Robert Moynihan, Hon C.
Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) Murphy, Christopher
Evennett, David Neale, Gerrard
Eyre, Sir Reginald Nelson, Anthony
Fairbairn, Nicholas Neubert, Michael
Fallon, Michael Newton, Tony
Fletcher, Alexander Nicholls, Patrick
Fookes, Miss Janet Norris, Steven
Forman, Nigel Onslow, Cranley
Fox, Sir Marcus Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.
Franks, Cecil Osborn, Sir John
Fry, Peter Ottaway, Richard
Gale, Roger Page, Sir John (Harrow W)
Garel-Jones, Tristan Page, Richard (Herts SW)
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian Patten, Christopher (Bath)
Glyn, Dr Alan Pawsey, James
Goodhart, Sir Philip Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian
Gower, Sir Raymond Pollock, Alexander
Greenway, Harry Porter, Barry
Gregory, Conal Portillo, Michael
Griffiths, Sir Eldon Powell, William (Corby)
Grist, Ian Powley, John
Ground, Patrick Price, Sir David
Grylls, Michael Proctor, K. Harvey
Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) Raffan, Keith
Hampson, Dr Keith Rhodes James, Robert
Hargreaves, Kenneth Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Ridsdale, Sir Julian
Hawkins, C. (High Peak) Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Hayhoe, Rt Hon Barney Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)
Heddle, John Robinson, Mark (N'port W)
Henderson, Barry Roe, Mrs Marion
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. Rossi, Sir Hugh
Hill, James Rost, Peter
Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) Rowe, Andrew
Hunt, David (Wirral W) Rumbold, Mrs Angela
Hunter, Andrew Ryder, Richard
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas Sackville, Hon Thomas
Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick Sainsbury, Hon Timothy
Key, Robert Sayeed, Jonathan
King, Roger (B'ham N'field) Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) Shelton, William (Streatham)
Lang, Ian Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Lawler, Geoffrey Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Lawrence, Ivan Silvester, Fred
Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel Sims, Roger
Lee, John (Pendle) Skeet, Sir Trevor
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lester, Jim Speed, Keith
Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd) Speller, Tony
Lightbown, David Spencer, Derek
Lilley, Peter Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) Squire, Robin
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) Stanbrook, Ivor
Lord, Michael Steen, Anthony
Luce, Rt Hon Richard Stern, Michael
Lyell, Nicholas Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)
Macfarlane, Neil Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)
MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) Stokes, John
Maclean, David John Taylor, John (Solihull)
McLoughlin, Patrick Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) Temple-Morris, Peter
Major, John Terlezki, Stefan
Malins, Humfrey Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.
Maples, John Thomas, Rt Hon Peter
Marland, Paul Thompson, Donald (Calder V)
Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)
Mather, Carol Thorne, Neil (Ilword S)
Maude, Hon Francis Thornton, Malcolm
Mellor, David Townend, John (Bridlington)
Merchant, Piers Trippier, David
Miller, Hal (B'grove) Twinn, Dr Ian
Mills, Iain (Meriden) van Straubenzee, Sir W.
Miscampbell, Norman Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Moate, Roger Viggers, Peter
Monro, Sir Hector Wakeham, Rt Hon John
Montgomery, Sir Fergus Waldegrave, Hon William
Morris, M. (N'hampton S) Walden, George
Walker, Bill (T'side N) Winterton, Mrs Ann
Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester) Wolfson, Mark
Wall, Sir Patrick Wood, Timothy
Waller, Gary Woodcock, Michael
Ward, John Yeo, Tim
Wardle, C. (Bexhill) Young, Sir George (Acton)
Warren, Kenneth Younger, Rt Hon George
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen (Hertford) Tellers for the Noes
Wheeler, John Mr. Tony Durant and
Whitfield, John Mr. Mr. Gerald Malone
Wiggin, Jerry

Question accordingly negatived.

It being more than two hours after the commencement of the proceedings on the motion relating to the Gas Bill (Allocation of Time), MR. SPEAKER proposed, pursuant to the order this day, to put forthwith the Questions necessary to bring the proceedings on the Lords amendment to a conclusion.

Lords amendment No. 3 agreed to.

Subsequent Lords amendments agreed to. [Some with Special Entry.]

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