HC Deb 21 July 1986 vol 102 cc77-81 7.13 pm
The Minister of State, Department of Energy (Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith)

I beg to move,

That the Order [17th February] be supplemented as follows:

Lords Amendments 1. — (1) The proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall be completed at this day's sitting and, subject to the provisions of the Order [I7th February], those proceedings shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion two hours after the commencement of the proceedings on the Motion for this Order. (2) Paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted business) shall apply to the proceedings. (3) No dilatory Motion with respect to, or in the course of, the proceedings shall he made except by a member of the Government, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith. 2.—(1) For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph 1 above—

  1. (a) Mr. Speaker shall first put forthwith any Question which has already been proposed from the Chair and not yet decided and, if that Question is for the Amendment of a Lords Amendment, shall then put forthwith the Question on any further Amendment to the said Lords Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown and on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown, That this House doth agree or disagree with the Lords in the said Lords Amendment or, as the case may be, in the said Lords Amendment, as amended;
  2. (b) Mr. Speaker shall then designate such of the remaining Lords Amendments as appear to him to involve questions of Privilege and shall—
    1. (i) put forthwith the Question on any Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown to a Lords Amendment and then put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown, That this House doth agree or disagree with the Lords in their Amendment, or as the case may be, in their Amendment, as amended;
    2. (ii) put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown, That this House cloth disagree with the Lords in a Lords Amendment;
    3. (iii) put forthwith with respect to each Amendment designated by Mr. Speaker which has not been disposed of the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in their Amendment; and
    4. (iv) put forthwith the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in all the remaining Lords Amendments;
  3. (c) as soon as the House has agreed or disagreed with the Lords in any of their Amendments Mr. Speaker shall put forthwith a separate Question on any other Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown relevant to that Lords Amendment.

Stages subsequent to first Consideration of Lords Amendments 3.— (1) The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords on the Bill shall be brought to a conclusion one hour after the commencement of the proceedings. (2) For the purpose of bringing those proceedings to a conclusion—

  1. (a) Mr. Speaker shall first put forthwith any Question which has already been proposed from the Chair and not yet decided, and shall then put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown which is related to the Question already proposed from the Chair;
  2. (b) Mr. Speaker shall then designate such of the remaining items in the Lords Message as appear to him to involve questions of Privilege and shall—
  1. (i) put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown on any item;
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  2. (ii) in the case of each remaining item designated by Mr. Speaker, put forthwith the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in their Proposal; and
  3. (iii) put forthwith the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in all the remaining Lords Proposals.

Supplemental 4. — (1) In this paragraph 'the proceedings' means proceedings on any further Message from the Lords on the Bill, on the appointment and quorum of a Committee to draw up Reasons and the Report of such a Committee. (2) Mr. Speaker shall put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown for the consideration forthwith of the Message or, as the case may be, for the appointment and quorum of the Committee. (3) A Committee appointed to draw up Reasons shall report before the conclusion of the sitting at which it is appointed. (4) Paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted business) shall apply to the proceedings. (5) No dilatory Motion with respect to, or in the course of, the proceedings shall be made except by a member of the Government, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith. (6) If the proceedings are interrupted by a Motion for the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 10 (Adjournment on specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration), a period equal to the duration of the proceedings on the Motion shall be added to the period at the end of which the proceedings are to be brought to a conclusion.

We have debated the Gas Bill at considerable length on the Floor of the House and in Committee, and it has been debated in another place as well. Both Houses have spent about 260 hours debating the Bill. In this place we debated 370 amendments, and some 630 amendments were considered in another place. Altogether, about 1,000 amendments have been debated. Tonight we have 32 amendments before us from another place, the majority of which are of a drafting or technical nature. The few that are of substance are very much in response to views that have been expressed in the House and in another place. I am glad that the Government have been able to respond.

In these circumstances, I believe that the terms of the motion should be adequate for our consideration of the Lords amendments.

7.14 pm
Mr. Stan Orme (Salford, East)

First, I inform the House that, because of the shortage of time, we shall not divide the House when the Question is put on the motion. None the less, we think that the provision of time is outrageously short, especially when we bear in mind the debates that have taken place in another place.

I have been informed that the Government, according to the Denning amendment, would have to inform trade unions of the legal, economic and social implications of the transfer and that the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employees) Regulations 1981 provide that the Government have to disclose how many men would be redundant and what alternative work would be obtained for them. That issue was debated in another place last Thursday. This afternoon the Leader of the House told us that the Dockyard Services Bill, which is affected by the Denning amendment and which the Government were unable to proceed with last Friday, will be introduced on Wednesday. I understand that negotiations are still taking place with Lord Denning. We claim that there is a n analogy with the Gas Bill.

I have been informed by the trade unions that in the light of a statement made last week in another place the British Gas Corporation has done all that it can to comply with the TUPE '81 regulations. The trade unions, however, are of the opinion that there has not been adequate or sufficient consultation about the intended transfer and that all the information required by the regulations to be made available has not been supplied. This includes the legal, economic and social implications of the transfer for all affected employees.

I understand that the trade unions are prepared to take any necessary legal action to protect the rights which the regulations give to their members who are employed by the British Gas Corporation. The Secretary of State laughs, but if the issue goes to court he might end up laughing on the other side of his face. I ask the Minister of State to explain whether the issue that I have outlined will have an effect on the Bill and will delay the sale of the shares of British Gas. The House is entitled to an answer to an extremely important question which has arisen during the passage of the Bill in another place. I ask the Minister to respond.

Mr. Buchanan-Smith

I shall respond to the right hon. Gentleman's question, but I think that he is making a great deal out of very little. Last week in another place it was explained that the policy of British Gas from the outset has been to comply with all the requirements of the regulations to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. Such are management-employee relations within British Gas that, as was made clear last week, the corporation has taken great care, which it always does, to go beyond merely fulfilling the letter of the obligations that it has to its employees. British Gas has already done all that it can do to comply with the requirements set out in the regulations and to inform and consult the trade unions.

There is one exception, to which reference was made last week, and that is the actual date of transfer from the corporation to the plc. Once the Bill becomes law and the Government are able to announce the timetable leading up to privatisation and the sale of shares, British Gas will immediately inform the unions of the transfer date. I hope that the right hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Orme) realises that British Gas has fully informed and consulted the trade unions. In addition, my right hon. Friend and I have always made ourselves available during the passage of the Bill to discuss the matter with the trade unions. We had two meetings with the Gas Unions Against Retail Denationalisation organisation that represents the unions involved in British Gas. At the end of both those meetings, my right hon. Friend invited representatives of the organisation to refer to him at any time any matter for clarification.

My right hon. Friend and I also had a meeting with the energy committee of the TUC. My right hon. Friend replied in detail to a submission that it put to us on a number of points. I have amplified the consultations that Ministers have had with the unions concerned. I assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that the unions have been fully informed and consulted at all stages.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved, That the Order [17th February] be supplemented as follows:

Lords Amendments 1. — (1) The proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall be completed at this day's sitting and, subject to the provisions of the Order [17th February], those proceedings shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion two hours after the commencement of the proceedings on the Motion for this Order. (2) Paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted business) shall apply to the proceedings. (3) No dilatory Motion with respect to, or in the course of, the proceedings shall be made except by a member of the Government, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith. 2.—(1) For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph 1 above—

  1. (a) Mr. Speaker shall first put forthwith any Question which has already been proposed from the Chair and not yet decided and, if that Question is for the Amendment of a Lords Amendment, shall then put forthwith the Question on any further Amendment to the said Lords Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown and on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown, That this House doth agree or disagree with the Lords in the said Lords Amendment or, as the case may be, in the said Lords Amendment, as amended;
  2. (b) Mr. Speaker shall then designate such of the remaining Lords Amendments as appear to him to involve questions of Privilege and shall—
    1. (i) put forthwith the Question on any Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown to a Lords Amendment and then put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown, That this House doth agree or disagree with the Lords in their Amendment, or as the case may be, in their Amendment, as amended;
    2. (ii) put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in a Lords Amendment;
    3. (iii) put forthwith with respect to each Amendment designated by Mr. Speaker which has not been disposed of the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in their Amendment; and
    4. (iv) put forthwith the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in all the remaining Lords Amendments;
  3. (c) as soon as the House has agreed or disagreed with the Lords in any of their Amendments Mr. Speaker shall put forthwith a separate Question on any other Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown relevant to that Lords Amendment.

Stages subsequent to first Consideration of Lords Amendments 3. —(1) The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords on the Bill shall be brought to a conclusion one hour after the commencement of the proceedings. (2) For the purpose of bringing those proceedings to a conclusion—

  1. (a) Mr. Speaker shall first put forthwith any Question which has already been proposed from the Chair and not yet decided, and shall then put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown which is related to the Question already proposed from the Chair;
  2. (b) Mr. Speaker shall then designate such of the remaining items in the Lords Message as appear to him to involve questions of Privilege and shall—
  1. (i) put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown on any item;
  2. (ii) in the case of each remaining item designated by Mr. Speaker, put forthwith the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in their Proposal; and
  3. (iii) put forthwith the Question, That this House doth agree with the Lords in all the remaining Lords Proposals.

Supplemental 4. — (1) In this paragraph 'the proceedings' means proceedings on any further Message from the Lords on the Bill, on the appointment and quorum of a Committee to draw up Reasons and the Report of such a Committee. (2) Mr. Speaker shall put forthwith the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown for the consideration forthwith of the Message or, as the case may be, for the appointment and quorum of the Committee. (3) A Committee appointed to draw up Reasons shall report before the conclusion of the sitting at which it is appointed. (4) Paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted business) shall apply to the proceedings. (5) No dilatory Motion with respect to, or in the course of, the proceedings shall be made except by a member of the Government, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith. (6) If the proceedings are interrupted by a Motion for the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 10 (Adjournment on specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration), a period equal to the duration of the proceedings on the Motion shall be added to the period at the end of which the proceedings are to be brought to a conclusion.