HC Deb 17 July 1986 vol 101 cc1184-6

4.8 pm

Mr. Jim Spicer (Dorset, West)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You may remember that immediately after Prime Minister's questions on Tuesday I attempted to raise a point of order which related directly to the conduct of the right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock)? At one point during an exchange with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when Chief Minister Buthelezi was mentioned, the right hon. Gentleman gave a Fascist salute from a sedentary position, implying that Chief Minister Buthelezi was a Fascist. When he was questioned about Inkatha, again from a sedentary position he said that this, too, was a Fascist party. I wonder whether you could give him an opportunity to withdraw what is an obvious slur on a man who is respected throughout the world.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I did not hear those remarks. I must say to the House again that my microphones are tuned to whoever happens to be speaking. I do not hear a lot of what goes on in the Chamber; perhaps that is just as well. Nor did I see any salutes of that nature.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. With respect to the views that you have just expressed, I can assure you that the Leader of the Opposition did give a Fascist salute from a sedentary position on Tuesday. It occurred during questions to the Prime Minister which are dealt with in column 849 of Hansard—

Mr. Speaker

Order. As it is not recorded in Hansard, how would anybody know? I must say to both hon. Gentlemen that this is old hat—[Interruption.] Order. This should have been raised on Tuesday.

Mr. Winterton

It was indeed raised on Tuesday by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Mr. Spicer)—

Mr. Speaker

Order. No, it was not raised on Tuesday. I said to the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Mr. Spicer) that I would take his point of order at the usual time but he was not in the Chamber at the appropriate moment to raise it—

Mr. Winterton

He was.

Mr. Speaker

Well, if he was he did not raise that point of order. I cannot accept it now.

Mr. Winterton

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. With the best will in the world, we cannot go back on what happened earlier in the week. I will allow the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) to finish his point of order and then that is the end of it.

Mr. Winterton

If you did not hear what went on, Mr. Speaker, many of my hon. Friends and certainly the Press Gallery did. An article appeared in The Sun newspaper the following day—[Interruption.].

Mr. Speaker

Order. We have a very heavy day. Let the hon. Gentleman finish.

Mr. Winterton

—in which it is alleged — I did not interpret it in that way — that the Leader of the Opposition directed a Fascist salute at me and shouted "Fascist". I do not believe that that remark was directed in my direction. If it was, I believe the right hon. Gentleman would wish to apologise, because he has no grounds for making that remark. Irrespective of that, if he did direct that remark, inadvertently, in an uncontrolled moment, at the leader of the largest group of blacks in South Africa, Chief Gatsha Buthelezi of the Inkatha party, he should also seek an opportunity to apologise to that very distinguished leader of African opinion.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I have allowed the hon. Member to finish in order that we can get on. In this place we cannot rake over events that may have happened earlier in the week simply because of a report in a newspaper.

I have three short statements to make. In the light of the announcement made by the Leader of the House of the proposed dates of return from the recess, questions for oral answer on Tuesday 21 October, Wednesday 22 October and Thursday 23 October may be tabled forthwith. I have directed the Table Office that the shuffles for questions for oral answer on these days be held—

Mr. Winterton

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker —

Mr. Speaker

Order. I am on my feet.

I have directed the Table Office that shuffles for questions for oral answer on these days be held at 6 pm tonight.

I remind the House that on the motion for the Adjournment of the House on Friday 25 July up to eight Members may raise subjects of their own choice with Ministers. Applications should reach my office by 10 pm on Monday next. A ballot will be held on Tuesday morning and the results made known as soon as possible thereafter.

I have to make a further short statement about the arrangements for the debate on the motion for the Adjournment which will follow the passing of the Consolidated Fund Bill on 24 July. Members should submit their subjects to my office not later than 9 am on Wednesday 23 July. A list showing the subjects and times will be published later that day. Normally, the time allotted will not exceed 1½ hours but I propose to exercise discretion to allow one or two debates to continue for rather longer, up to a maximum of three hours. Where identical or similar subjects have been entered by different Members whose names are drawn in the ballot only the first name will appear on the list. As some debates may not last the full time allotted to them it is the responsibility of Members to keep in touch with developments if they are not to miss their turn.

Mr. Winterton

On a new point of order, Mr. Speaker. In the presence of many Members on this side of the House the Leader of the Opposition has just implied — I am convinced I will be supported by Members on the Tory Benches—that I have been in receipt of funds or money from South Africa or other organisations associated with South Africa. I deny that and I challenge the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw it. It is an unfounded slur which I very much regret and which I cannot believe he intends.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I did not hear anything of that kind—

Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough and Horncastle)

rose—

Mr. Speaker

I do not need any help. I have not finished. I think that if the Leader of the Opposition did happen to say anything of that kind he would wish to deny it.

Mr. Leigh

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I distinctly heard the Leader of the Opposition say "Boyo, you got paid."

Mr. Speaker

Order. Yesterday the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) quite correctly made some complimentary remarks about the good spirit of the regatta. Let us proceed today in that same good nature —[Interruption.] Order. It is not worth creating a great row about something that may have happened earlier in the week. Let us move on.

Mr. Winterton

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have been accused—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I must ask the hon. Gentleman to contain himself. Statement, the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Mr. Winterton

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I would be very reluctant at this stage in the Session to ask the hon. Member to withdraw but I must now ask him to resume his seat. I call the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Mr. Winterton

Disgraceful.