§ Q1. Mr. Dubsasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 17 July.
§ The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House I shall be having further meetings later today, including one with President Mubarak of Egypt.
§ Mr. DubsGiven today's hint of an impending change in Government policy on sanctions against South Africa, does the Prime Minister agree that the only just solution for that country is the eradication of apartheid and the establishment of majority rule in a united and non-fragmented South Africa, a statement to which she signed her name at the Commonwealth Heads of Governments conference in New Delhi in 1983?
§ The Prime MinisterBoth the Nassau accord and the European Council meeting at The Hague envisaged discussion on further measures that might be needed. As I said in the House on 1 July, contingency arrangements are being made. With regard to the latter part of the question, if the hon. Gentleman reads the Commonwealth accord at Nassau he will find this sentence about getting rid of apartheid:
We believe that we must do all we can to assist that process,"—this is the critical part—while recognising that the forms of political settlement in South Africa are for the people of that country—all the people—to determine.
§ Mr. WhitfieldDoes my right hon. Friend agree that the insistence of Mr. Colin Sampson, the chief constable of West Yorkshire, on the suspension of Mr. John Stalker as the deputy chief constable of Manchester pending the outcome of his inquiries into the activities of Mr. Stalker in Manchester, and his insistence on the suspension of two senior police officers in Northern Ireland pending the outcome of the inquiries into certain activities of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, demonstrate that Mr. Sampson is carrying out a proper and robust inquiry into both matters? Further, does my right hon. Friend agree that suggestions in the media to the contrary are at best mischievous and at worst the result of an orchestrated campaign by those who have the worst to fear from the outcome of those two most important inquiries?
§ The Prime MinisterAs my hon. Friend is aware, police matters in Northern Ireland are for the Chief Constable of the RUC and matters concerning Mr. Stalker are for the police complaints procedure. It would be totally wrong of me to comment on either while the procedures are in process.
§ Dr. OwenOn the contingency measures that the Prime Minister has just announced, which could well be the important signal that the Commonwealth needs to rescue the Commonwealth Games, will the Prime Minister make 1169 it clear that those measures are neither "immoral" nor "repugnant", and will she withdraw those very offensive remarks?
§ The Prime MinisterI have answered faithfully accusations made against me and about various things concerned with sanctions. Like every hon. Member, I wish to see apartheid ended at the earliest opportunity. I believe passionately that it will best be ended by negotiations. We are doing everything we can to bring those negotiations about, as the right hon. Gentleman knows. The further contingency measures were in the communique of the EEC. Those are not automatic. They never were automatic. They are there to be considered. I have described them as contingency measures, but they are not automatic.
§ Mr. HarrisHas my right hon. Friend considered what some of us regard as the disgraceful decision of this House last night in voting for a large increase of over £7,000 for secretarial allowances? If the decision is irreversible, can my right hon. Friend think of any other section of public expenditure that has increased by over 50 per cent. this year?
§ The Prime MinisterAs my hon. Friend knows, the level of the allowance is a matter for the House, which voted last night for a 52 per cent. increase in the office, secretarial and research allowance. The decision was taken against the advice of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, who argued that it was wholly inappropriate to vote for such a substantial increase at the very moment when the level and structure of the secretarial allowance had been referred to the Top Salaries Review Body for general review. No doubt last night's decision will be taken into account in that review. I remind the House that the cost of Parliament, which is determined by Parliament and not by the Government, has risen from £26 million in 1978–79 to £72 million last year. The increase to which my hon. Friend has referred must be found out of the pockets of our constituents.
§ Q2. Mr. Winnickasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 17 July.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. WinnickWould the Prime Minister like to comment in any way on the numerous press articles which have appeared in the past few days regarding the position of the Head of the Commonwealth and the future of that organisation? Does the right hon. Lady not agree that the Commonwealth faces its most severe crisis, largely because of her attitude? Only a few days ago she suggested that South Africa should not have been excluded from the Commonwealth in 1961. Does the right hon. Lady not realise how deeply offensive and grotesque those remarks were, coming from a British Prime Minister?
§ The Prime MinisterWe try to influence the policies of nations with which we disagree. We seem to have taken a different view of South Africa — [Interruption.] —although we do wish to try to influence its policies to end apartheid. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We often condemn lack of free speech elsewhere. We must not deny it to the Prime Minister.
§ The Prime MinisterI propose to follow the well-established practice of my predecessors and not answer questions on the Floor of the House, directly or indirectly, about the monarch.
§ Q3. Mr. Bestasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 17 July.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. BestDoes my right hon. Friend accept that there are many black leaders in South Africa who have different and constructive views as to what should be the change after the dismantling of apartheid? Will she take those different views into account when formulating her own policy, so that we can move the debate on to the more fruitful ground of discussion of the substance of change rather than merely any change for change's sake, without having firm ideas about its actual nature, which so often appears to be the refuge of Opposition Members?
§ The Prime MinisterAs my hon. Friend knows, the African National Congress has made its views well known. A representative of the ANC met my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Foreign Office, the hon. Member for Wallasey (Mrs. Chalker), some time ago, and we know its views. We also know, and read only this morning in the newspapers, of the testimony of Chief Buthelezi, in which he said that the imposition of negative, punitive measures against Pretoria can only impair the process by which black and white are finding common cause with each other to an ever-increasing extent. Our objective is the same. It is the end of apartheid. We wish to do everything that we can to bring it to an end by negotiations, and, ultimately, that will be the way that change will come about.
§ Mr. KinnockRecord unemployment figures have again been published today, amounting to three and a quarter million. For the first time since March 1983 the numbers employed have gone down. In her current review of public expenditure for next year, what will the Prime Minister do to try to ensure that the jobs that desperately need to be done can be commissioned and paid for: jobs, for instance, in the building industry, where private building is now stagnant and council house building is 70 per cent. —90,000 houses—lower than it was when she took office in 1979?
§ The Prime MinisterI believe — although I do not have the press release with me — that the numbers in employment have gone up, although the right hon. Gentleman is right in saying that the unemployment figures are deeply disappointing and that the seasonally adjusted unemployment figure has gone up by 15,000, so that it has risen to 3.2 million. As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, we have done a very great deal for the unemployed. [Interruption.] This is not a matter which affects only the United Kingdom. It affects the whole of the Western world. In the last five years we have spent over £8.5 billion on employment measures and the youth training scheme. The YTS has taken more than 1 million trainees and it has now expanded to a two-year scheme. On housing, as the right hon. Gentleman is aware, 1.3 million new homes have been built in Great Britain since 1979. If we take more money out of business and away from the taxpayer, what we have to take into account are the jobs that are lost and the investment that is lost by the 1171 money we take away and the return that that would give, compared with any that it would give if it were put into the public sector.
§ Mr. KinnockIs not the critical fact that at the same time as the Prime Minister has been cutting public expenditure and losing jobs in the construction industry, 1.7 million manufacturing jobs have also gone? So the equation does not work at all. Is it not the case that there are more people in long-term unemployment than there were in total unemployment when the Prime Minister took over? Will she tell us what has happened to the 2 million full-time jobs that have been lost since she became Prime Minister? Why does she not stop dodging and start building?
§ The Prime MinisterWe have tackled some of the problems from which the right hon. Gentleman's Government ran away. If the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that we should put back into manufacturing industry all the overmanning that was taken away, he will ruin the whole lot of industry.
§ Q4. Mr. Michael Brownasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 17 July 1986.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. BrownTurning to the future of education, does my right hon. Friend agree that what we have to do in the coming months is to offer the prospect of choice within the state system of education to parents, and that this can best be done by ensuring that state funds for the state education system are based upon cash following the pupil? Is my right hon. Friend aware that on Thursday 24 July a group of her colleagues on this side of the House, who have produced a pamphlet called "No Turning Back", will be producing a pamphlet to he published by the Conservative Political Centre entitled, "Save our Schools"? Will she undertake to set that pamphlet as homework for the Secretary of State for Education and Science?
§ The Prime MinisterYes, my hon. Friend is right. It is our purpose to give more choice to parents whose children go through the state system, which is 95 per cent. of our children. We wish to give to those parents more choice of schools, particularly as some children in some city centres have to resist political indoctrination and do not get the teaching that they deserve. My hon. Friend has illustrated one way in which it will be possible to do that. I shall certainly add the pamphlet to my own homework and that of the Secretary of State for Education and Science.
§ Q5. Mr. Ernie Rossasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 17 July.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. RossWill the Prime Minister take time today to send a clear statement to the Heads of Government of the front-line states, who will meet tomorrow in Harare, that she is absolutely totally committed to the statement issued by the recent EEC summit, in order not only to preserve and save the Commonwealth, but to save the Commonwealth Games?
§ The Prime MinisterThe Commonwealth Games are a matter for the Commonwealth Federation. They are not a matter for me. We have faithfully carried out the Commonwealth accord and we shall also faithfully carry out the EEC statement. It is important, as we have made clear all along, that any action which is taken should be considered not only by the Commonwealth and the EEC but by all the Western industrialised countries. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary left to discuss matters further in Washington today.
§ Q6. Mr. Batisteasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 17 July.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. BatisteHas my right hon. Friend had the opportunity of looking at the pamphlets about the miners' strike and the Falklands war which I sent to her office recently? Is she aware that those pamphlets, circulating in schools in my constituency and elsewhere in Yorkshire, were collected by concerned trade unionists, who were appalled at the level of political propaganda that they represented? Does she share their concern, and what is to be done about the offensive remarks made about her and about the British interest? What will she do about the continuing attack upon freedom of education in our country by the Left?
§ The Prime MinisterI and a number of my colleagues saw those two pamphlets, which were utterly disgraceful. They were nothing to do with education and I am amazed that they properly came within anyone's education budget. My hon. Friend will be aware that the other place has been trying to do something to exclude political indoctrination from schools. The matter will shortly come before the House and we shall express our view upon that clause, I hope forcefully, and keep it in the Bill.
§ Mr. Jim SpicerOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerDoes it arise directly out of these questions?
§ Mr. SpicerYes. You may recollect, Mr. Speaker, that on Tuesday I attempted—
§ Mr. SpeakerToday or Tuesday?
§ Mr. SpicerTuesday.
§ Mr. SpeakerI shall take it later.