South Africa (Hansard, 9 July 1986)

§ 1. Mr. Hoyle
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will ask the European Economic Community Council to instruct the European Economic Community Trade Ministers to consider effective trade measures against South Africa.

§ 2. Mr. Hardy
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when the European Economic Community Council will next discuss the situation in South Africa and action by European Economic Community member states.

§ 6. Mr. Wareing
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information he has as to how many European Economic Community member states support Her Majesty's Government in their opposition to economic measures against South Africa.

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mrs. Lynda Chalker)
The Twelve are united in a common policy towards South Africa designed to hasten the process of peaceful reform and to encourage the South African Government to begin a dialogue with genuine representatives of the black population. The European Council recently entrusted my right hon. and learned Friend with a mission to southern Africa, the aim of which is to try to help establish the conditions in which the necessary negotiations can commence. He is currently visiting Zambia, Zimbabwe and Mozambique in pursuit of this objective, and plans to travel to South Africa towards the end of the month.

§ Mr. Hoyle
Does the Minister agree that it would be sensible and sane for her right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary to call off this useless charade, especially now that it has been condemned as a fudge by President Kaunda? The ANC will not meet him, the Church leaders do not want to see him, and even his friend, President Botha, is keeping him waiting. Would it not be more sensible for him to stop making a spectacle of himself, call off this farce and return home and try to persuade the Prime Minister to listen to the views of the black population, who want meaningful economic sanctions.

§ Mrs. Chalker
The hon. Gentleman is very wrong. The Heads of Government of the Twelve agreed on an urgent 288 need for genuine dialogue on the future of South Africa. They wish a further effort to be made to seek to establish conditions in which dialogue can commence. This is not a lost cause. We are trying again the road to persuasion. As the Prime Minister said in The Guardian this morning: We can still help to get negotiations started. When a meeting is sought with the ANC or with any other group, I hope that there will be a positive response. It is quite certain that in meeting my right hon. and learned Friend President Kaunda also believes that there is a future in dialogue through negotiation.

§ Mr. Hardy
In order to obtain a realistic record, will the Minister of State tell the House which Governments of the member states of the EEC are willing to apply sanctions and which are opposed to sanctions?

§ Mrs. Chalker
There is not a complete list. A number of countries believe that pressure should be applied, but many countries and many people who have called for sanctions believe that effective measures may not necessarily be general economic sanctions, to which Britain is opposed. It is through the consultations that my right hon. and learned Friend and others are undertaking that, if necessary, we will find what effective measures may have to be considered by the European Council and at the Commonwealth review meeting.

§ Mr. Wareing
Is it not a fact that the EEC countries have allowed themselves to be bullied and manoeuvred by the Prime Minister? Because of the need to have a unified policy, they have had to give way to the attacks being made by the Prime Minister upon the idea of economic sanctions. Can the Minister of State name just one country in the EEC that is doing less than Britain to bring pressure to bear upon South Africa?

§ Mrs. Chalker
The hon. Gentleman is sadly wrong. Other countries in the EEC are taking a variety of measures, and we are certainly taking as many as any of them.

§ Sir Peter Blaker
In view of the petty party point-scoring by Opposition Members, would it not be as well for the House to remember that it was a Conservative Government who secured a solution to the problem of Rhodesia after years of abject failure by a Labour Government?

§ Mrs. Chalker
My right hon. Friend is absolutely correct. I seem to remember a previous Prime Minister thinking that he could effect a quick answer in about 1965, but it took another 14 years. It was a Conservative Government who brought to an end the tragedies in Zimbabwe. I hope that all the efforts, not only of this Government, but of my right hon. and learned Friend on behalf of the European Community, will lead to a framework for dialogue within which we can bring an end to the awful violence which is taking place on all sides in South Africa.

§ Mr. Temple-Morris
Does my hon. Friend accept that there is no option now, whatever our individual views may be, but to support my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary in his enterprise and efforts in southern Africa? Will she emphasise that he goes there on behalf of all EEC countries with strong United States links and that, therefore, he represents overwhelmingly the majority of South Africa's major trading partners? Will my hon. 289 Friend also emphasise to South Africa that, if it does not have the sense to listen to my right hon. and learned Friend, it may not get another chance?

§ Mrs. Chalker
I endorse wholeheartedly what my hon. Friend has said about the significance of this mission. It offers an important opportunity to break the cycle of violence in South Africa and to promote the very necessary dialogue and negotiation that we all want to see. My right hon. and learned Friend's mission deserves the support of the entire international community. Those Opposition Members or others who seek to talk it down for narrow partisan reasons should ask themselves seriously whether they are doing the cause any good at all. I remind the House that five of South Africa's major trading partners are united behind my right hon. and learned Friend's mission to find a peaceful solution to the terrible problems of apartheid.

§ Mr. Adley
Does my hon. Friend accept that Conservative Members, who have a genuine concern for the rights of black people in South Africa believe that dialogue is better than monologue and find faintly nauseating the antics of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) in constantly trying to make partisan points which do no good whatsoever for the aspirations of black people in South Africa? Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that we support what my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary is doing, but, if he is unsuccessful, we expect the Government to align themselves with our friends in the Community and in the Commonwealth and take whatever action is considered to be appropriate?

§ Mrs. Chalker
The dialogue upon which my right hon. and learned Friend has embarked is the last chance perhaps to get a successful dialogue going. It is wrong to assume that this mission will fail. I have seen all sorts of headlines and comments by right hon. and hon. Members. What is going on is a gradual, steady effort to make sure that everybody who can be involved is involved in the dialogue, which must surely come. I sincerely hope that all right hon. and hon. Members and the media will see that what is really going on is a positive effort to start the dialogue for negotiations between all peoples in South Africa.

§ Mr. Beith
Does the hon. Lady understand, from what the Prime Minister said on the radio this morning, that there are no economic measures that the Government would contemplate using if the Foreign Secretary's visit does not achieve the results that were set out for it? If that is so, how will that help the Foreign Secretary in his task?

§ Mrs. Chalker
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said nothing different this morning from what she has said before. This morning on the radio programme "Today" she said: I am and remain against punitive economic sanctions—general economic sanctions. However—and the hon. Gentleman did not refer to this —my right hon. Friend then said that she understood that the Commonwealth was very concerned that we show what they call signals or gestures of disapproval of South African policy of apartheid … and we agree with those and operate them, as a gesture, a signal to South Africa that the world thoroughly disapproves of the system of apartheid and wants it to end. I can find no fault whatever with that policy, which is the policy of the whole Government.

§ Mr. John Carlisle
Does my hon. Friend accept that the economic sanctions that have been taken by this Government and others against South Africa have already resulted in starvation, lengthening dole queues and a lot of misery to black South Africans? Will she take this opportunity to clear her own position: that she shares the view of her right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that economic sanctions are not the answer? Will she get a message through to her right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary that he must not ask of the South African Government anything that they cannot possibly deliver in these circumstances?

§ Mr. Winnick
The hon. Gentleman gets paid for saying that. [Interruption.]

Hon. Members
Withdraw.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. There is so much noise that I do not know what was said. What word should be withdrawn?

§ Mr. Wilkinson
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) alleged that my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) was paid to put his question.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. If that is so, the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) must withdraw the allegation.

§ Mr. Winnick
I do not wish to take time out of Question Time. May I deal with the matter at the end of Question Time?

Hon. Members
No.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. Let us set off in a good way. Will the hon. Gentleman please withdraw that remark? He is an hon. Member, like everybody else.

§ Mr. Winnick
I have the greatest respect for you, Mr. Speaker. I am convinced in my mind that what I said was absolutely correct.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. Whatever the hon. Gentleman may be convinced about in his own mind, in this Chamber he must withdraw that comment.

§ Mr. Winnick
I shall do so only because of your ruling, and for no other reason, because I have not changed my mind one tiny bit. However, if you tell me to do so, in your capacity as Speaker, although what I believe is true, I have no alternative but to withdraw. Only in those circumstances do I withdraw.

§ Mr. John Carlisle
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I am not taking any more points of order. The hon. Gentleman has had his say.

§ Mrs. Chalker
The matter of South Africa is terribly serious, and it behoves the House not to catcall in one way or another. We want to see a speedy end to the awful regime of apartheid. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) says that general economic sanctions will have, and have had, damaging consequences before. I must point out that it is the potentially very serious effects on South Africa's neighbours, as well as on black people in South Africa, if general economic sanctions were to be applied, that makes us consult so widely and seriously about the best way to bring about an 291 effective change in South Africa. That is what my right hon and learned Friend will do throughout his mission and thereafter.

§ Mr. Healey
Does the Minister believe that the Foreign Secretary's chances of success in his mission have been improved by the fusillade of interviews given by the Prime Minister since he left London? In the course of those interviews the Prime Minister said that she was sorry that South Africa was not in the Commonwealth, she severely criticised the Governments of Zambia and Zimbabwe, she said that she was against economic sanctions in general, that she would support signs and gestures but did not believe that they would have any effect, and, finally, she said that she hoped the Commonwealth summit would take no action on South Africa. Has the Prime Minister not cut the ground from under the Foreign Secretary's feet and made his mission impossible?

§ Mrs. Chalker
If anyone has made my right hon. and learned Friend's position impossible, and sought to persuade persons, as I understand it, not even to meet him, it is the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey).

§ Mr. Healey
That is absolutely untrue.

§ Mrs. Chalker
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister understands very well the anger, despair and hopelessness of many people in South Africa and southern Africa. She fully supports the mission undertaken on behalf of the European Community by my right hon. and learned Friend, and she is seeking in every way possible to make sure that we view the possibilities ahead in a realistic way that will help to bring about that necessary pressure on the South African Government.

§ Mr. Healey
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I ask you to give the Minister a chance to withdraw the disgraceful statement that I sought to persuade African leaders not to see the Foreign Secretary. I ask her to consult the high commissioner in Lusaka, with whom I stayed, who will tell her that I spent the whole visit trying to persuade President Kaunda to see the Foreign Secretary and to withdraw his threat to leave the Commonwealth.

§ Mrs. Chalker
I would like the right hon. Gentleman, with whom I have frequently had good and thoughtful discussions on this subject, to assert in the House this afternoon that he fully supports my right hon. and learned Friend's intention and wish to meet the ANC and all other groups with which we seek to promote dialogue in an effort to bring an end to apartheid. I said to the right hon. Gentleman that I had understood that that had happened. If that is not the case—the right hon. Gentleman knows me well enough; he knows I will withdraw—I ask him to assert here this afternoon that he is fully in favour of my right hon. and learned Friend meeting all the political groups and all the people whom he seeks to meet in an effort to bring about the dialogue that we all urgently want.

Several Hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I will call the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) on the next question.

§ 3. Mr. MacKenzie
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent actions have been taken by Her Majesty's Government against the present Government of South Africa.

§ 7. Mr. Greenway
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's policies towards South Africa.

§ Mrs. Chalker
The Government have implemented a wide range of measures against South Africa, including the United Nations arms embargo, the Gleneagles agreement and those agreed with our Commonwealth partners at Nassau and our European partners in Luxembourg in 1985. We have also made representations to the South African Government on a number of issues, most recently the restrictions imposed under the state of emergency and the detention without charge of a large number of people. Our objectives remain an end to apartheid, a solution to the South African problem by negotiation and a suspension of violence on all sides. We shall continue with all our partners to do everything we can to help achieve those goals.

§ Mr. MacKenzie
Does the Minister accept that many hon. Members who dislike any form of extremism clearly believe that what has been done has not been enough? If we are to show our intense dislike of the fundamental philosophies of the South African Government, clearly much stronger measures will have to be taken than those that the Minister has just announced. That view is shared by many people, not least by the Church of Scotland, which has considerable experience of African questions.

§ Mrs. Chalker
I understand what the right hon. Gentleman is saying. Obviously the measures that we, together with other countries, have sought to take have not been enough, because they have not yet brought an end to apartheid. However, we should remember that considerable steps have begun to be taken in South Africa. They are not sufficient and, indeed, they must be followed by further steps to end apartheid as speedily as possible. However, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, as a result of the European Council meeting the Community will look at other measures that might be needed.

§ Mr. Greenway
Does my hon. Friend agree that nothing but bloodshed will be achieved unless the South African Government and all sections of the community there can be induced to speak, and that no amount of pressure on one section of the community or another which drives sections of the community into a bunker will help anybody? What measures does my hon. Friend envisage will achieve proper talks for the whole community?

§ Mrs. Chalker
It would be presumptious of me to say what further measures might bring about the much sought after peace that we all wish to see. It is right, during this period leading up to the Commonwealth review and further European meetings, that we should continue to discuss with our partners the real effects of each measure which has been discussed, because it is only when we measure how many people might be put out of work in southern Africa and how many might be brought to much greater hardship than they already suffer in South Africa and in the front-line states that we can judge the best way ahead.

§ Mr. Barnett
One of the arguments which the Prime Minister repeatedly uses against economic sanctions against South Africa is the damage that she believes they will do to the economies of front-line states and to the 293 African people in South Africa. What rights does the Prime Minister believe she has to speak on behalf of African people in the front-line states or South Africa?

§ Mrs. Chalker
It is not just my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister who believes that general economic sanctions would not bring about an end to apartheid. On 2 July, in The Times, Mrs. Helen Suzman said: What they would do, in fact, is to lay off workers as the economy wound down— a sombre prospect in a country with no social security safety net, no dole and no food stamps. She went on to say: Effective sanctions would wreck the economy and destroy the inheritance that blacks will undoubtedly share in the not-too-distant future. I remind the House that Mrs. Helen Suzman has been a South African Opposition Member of Parliament since 1961, and I believe that she is as right as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.

§ Mr. Mark Carlisle
Does my hon. Friend agree that many of those of us who wish to see genuine fundamental change in South Africa and who supported my hon. Friend in her decision to see Mr. Oliver Tambo regret bitterly the attitude of the ANC and Bishop Tutu in not being willing to see my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary? Does she also agree that it would help if the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) would use his considerable influence to encourage such meetings rather than to undermine my right hon. and learned Friend?

§ Mr. Healey
rose—

§ Mrs. Chalker
I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, that it is my turn.
We understand exactly what my right hon. and learned Friend said. I previously invited, and do so again, the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) to assert in the House that he is very much in favour of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary meeting all those whom he seeks to meet. When one sets out on a complicated mission such as this, I sincerely hope that hon. Members realise that it takes time to set up meetings between many others. When a meeting is sought, be it with the ANC or any other group, it is hoped that there will be a positive response, which I am sure the right hon. Member for Leeds, East will encourage.

§ Mr. Healey
I thank the Minister for withdrawing her earlier imputation. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, she did not"] Yes, she did. The Minister will be aware that I met Mr. Oliver Tambo before I left for South Africa and strongly encouraged him to meet the hon. Lady. He was minded not to do so, as I am sure she knows—[Interruption.] Yes, that is the case. When I was in' Lusaka I suggested that the Foreign Secretary's visit would give the ANC an opportunity of pursuing discussions and, in fact, I invited the Foreign Secretary in this House on Monday of this week to seek to meet the ANC on his visit. But the hon. Lady must accept that the depth of feeling against the British Prime Minister among the Governments of the front-line states and among many Commonwealth and European countries, as illustrated by the withdrawal of Nigeria from the Commonwealth Games today, is something about which the Prime Minister should be a great deal more sensitive than she showed herself to be in the bizarre series of inteviews to which I referred.

§ Mrs. Chalker
I note that the right hon. Gentleman has not asserted what I asked him to assert.

§ Mr. Healey
I have.

§ Mrs. Chalker
There needs to be not just an emotional response to the many emotional comments being made on this issue, but a realistic assessment of what the possibilities and effective measures might be. It is positive measures as well as restrictive measures that are most likely to be effective in promoting change in South Africa. If every hon. Member will consider the consequences of each and every point that is being discussed, we might come up with a far better solution than the ones that are being shouted and barracked about by Opposition Members.