§ Mr. Jim Spicer (Dorset, West)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I should like your advice. At Question Time today, the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner) made a pointed remark about the Head of State of a friendly Government, by speaking about Waldheim's army group E. Mr. Waldheim was 21 when the last war began. I can fully understand that during the course of an election campaign there would be a strong case for a desperate Socialist opposition or Government in Vienna to mount a campaign such as this. I wonder whether, as that campaign has finished, it would be within your power, Mr. Speaker, to ask hon. Members not to 312 attack the Heads of friendly Governments when they are performing their duties and nothing has been proved against them.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Nothing out of order took place. I listened carefully to what the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner) said. We we do not in general refer in detrimental terms to friendly Heads of State. Every hon. Member must take responsibility for what he says, but nothing out of order took place.
§ Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Although one recognises the convention regarding Heads of State, I hope that you will bear in mind that the most grave allegations have been made about the present President of Austria. This was not just because there was an election campaign but because documentary evidence has been produced showing that Waldheim was involved in actions taken by the German army—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman is raising a point of order that has nothing to do with me. If he raises a point of order that is to do with me, I shall endeavour to deal with it.
§ Mr. WinnickFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Bearing in mind the serious allegations made against Mr. Waldheim because of his wartime activities, is it not to be expected that hon. Members, at least those on the Opposition Benches, will continue to raise this matter, which I hope will not be ruled out of order because Mr. Waldheim has, unfortunately, been elected President of Austria?
Later—
§ Mr. Anthony Beaumont-Dark (Birmingham, Selly Oak)Further to an earlier point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would you be good enough to explain further your ruling on comments about Heads of State? I am well aware of the rules of procedure that state that we are not allowed to comment unfavourably on judges, members of the other place and the royal family, and I accept that readily. But is it right for you to rule that we are not allowed to comment on Heads of State, friendly or unfriendly, properly chosen or not? It would be a grave curtailment of democracy if you so ruled, and a ruling which ihould be challenged.
§ Mr. James Lamond (Oldham, Central and Royton)Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wonder who will define whether Heads of State are friendly or otherwise so that we know how we may refer to them?
§ Mr. Andrew Faulds (Warley, East)Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. With the greatest respect, would it not be advisable for you to be fairly liberal in your interpretation of this rule? It would be very much to the disadvantage of hon. Members if they could not comment on the obscenities of a President Amin or on the inadequacies of a President Reagan.
§ Mr. SpeakerI refer the House to page 431 of "Erskine May" where it states:
Opprobrious reflections must not be cast in debate on sovereigns and rulers over, or governments of, independent Commonwealth territories or countries in amity with Her Majesty, or their representatives in this country.I am aware that the Austrian President has been the subject of some controversy. The House will recollect that 313 I said that there was nothing out of order in the question of the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner).