§ Q1. Mr. Evennettasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 8 July.
§ The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House I shall have further meetings later today. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty The Queen.
§ Mr. EvennettWill my right hon. Friend reassure the House and the nation that the wild allegations circulating about the supposed state of health of the British people are wholly false, and that the incidence of major and killer diseases, such as cancer and heart disease, is no higher in this country than in other Western industrial nations?
§ The Prime MinisterI am happy to say that this country has an excellent Health Service, which serves its people well. There may be many causes of heart disease, but the number of heart bypass operations has trebled since 1979.
§ Mr. KinnockWhen P. W Botha cannot find time to see the Foreign Secretary this week, when black leaders in South Africa will not see him, and when the attitude of both the African National Congress and the leaders of the front-line states could not be more plain or more opposed to the Prime Minister's attitude to sanctions, what exactly is the purpose of sending the Foreign Secretary to southern Africa this week?
§ The Prime MinisterPresident Botha will see my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary on a date which has now been arranged in July, convenient to both of them. My right hon. and learned Friend will visit the front-line states before then and will hope to see some Heads of Government or Heads of State. I rather thought that the right hon. Gentleman was supporting my right hon. and learned Friend in his mission. Last week the right hon. Gentleman said that he wished my right hon. and learned Friend well, but at present the right hon Gentleman is doing everything that he can to undermine him.
§ Mr. KinnockThat is impossible when the Prime Minister has done such an effective job on scuppering her right hon. and learned Friend. In any case, it is not my enthusiasm that is required, but the response of P. W. Botha. Why is it that the Prime Minister wants to wait upon the convenience of P. W. Botha? Does she not realise 163 that people of all parties in this country take it ill that our Foreign Secretary should be regarded with such contempt by a bunch of racist gangsters in South Africa?
§ The Prime MinisterThe right hon. Gentleman must be hard up for a question if he asks such bunkum.
§ Mr. KinnockMay I then ask the Prime Minister what, precisely, is the purpose of the Foreign Secretary going to southern Africa this week? Is he not filling in time on a fool's errand?
§ The Prime MinisterMy right hon. and learned Friend goes to South Africa representing the 12 Governments of Europe. He is representing not only this country, but the 12 Governments of Europe, which have said:
The European Council decided to ask the future UK Presidency Foreign Minister to visit southern Africa, in a further effort to establish conditions in which the necessary dialogue can commence.Twelve Governments, 12 Heads of Government, 12 Foreign Secretaries have great faith in my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary.
§ Q2. Mr. Haywardasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 8 July.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. HaywardWill my right hon. Friend, during her busy day, consider, in her role as Head of the Civil Service, the recent election as general secretary of the Civil and Public Services Association of a gentleman who does not support the constitution or the monarchy and opposes the independence of the Civil Service? Is it not astonishing that such a man should—according to The Guardian—be a lifelong member of the Labour party? Is it not members such as him who cause the Labour party to lose by-elections in such places as Filton in Bristol North-West, because while they belong to the party, people do not believe that it has rid itself of the Militants?
§ The Prime MinisterMy hon. Friend makes his own point very effectively. The election within the CPSA is a matter for that union. If there were any allegations of irregularity, that would be a matter for the courts.
§ Mr. HefferIf the Foreign Secretary is not successful in the mission on which the right hon. Lady and the other Governments have sent him, if Nelson Mandela is not released from prison and there is no end to apartheid, will the right hon. Lady assure us that there will then be economic sanctions against South Africa?
§ The Prime MinisterThe position is set out in the communiqué issued by the 12 Governments, which states:
In the meantime in the next three months the Community will enter into consultations with the other industrialised countries on further measures which might be needed covering in particular a ban on new investments, the import of coal, iron, steel and gold coins from South Africa.There is nothing automatic about that, but contingency plans are being made and other countries are being consulted. I remind the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. and learned Friend is going as the representative of all the nations of the European Community, which have great confidence in my right hon. and learned Friend.
§ Mr. WrigglesworthWill the Prime Minister consider today the continued deterioration in the competitiveness of British industry as measured by unit labour costs? Does she not agree that the deterioration is in large part due to 164 increases in pay led by the private sector and that it will inevitably lead to further job losses? Will she tell the House what, apart from uttering exhortations, the Government intend to do to prevent this?
§ The Prime MinisterAs the hon. Gentleman is aware, the crucial figure is the unit labour cost. If unit labour costs rise faster here than in other countries, I agree that we are in danger of losing trade, and if we lose trade because we are not competitive, we lose jobs. It is, therefore, vital that wage negotiations should be conducted in such a way as to produce the result that our unit labour costs stay down.
§ Q3. Mr. Temple-Morrisasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 8 July.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. Temple-MorrisHas my right hon. Friend had time today to see reports of a quite outrageous, vicious and brutal attack upon a News International distribution depot in Eastleigh, Hampshire? Has she also seen police reports that members of SOGAT '82 were involved? Will my right hon. Friend, before the House, condemn that action as the outrage that it is?
§ The Prime MinisterI believe that criminal behaviour of that sort will be condemned by decent people everywhere. I understand that the raid on Sunday was the tenth made so far on TNT premises around the country since the printing dispute between News International and the print unions began in January this year. It is part of an attack made by some people. The Hampshire police are conducting an urgent investigation so that those responsible can be brought before the courts. This is no way in which to conduct an industrial dispute.
§ Mr. Nicholas BrownOn 24 April the Prime Minister gave an assurance that Harland and Wolff's bid for AOR I had been comprehensively costed. Why are the designs for that ship still being reviewed at the Ministry of Defence?
§ The Prime MinisterAs the hon. Gentleman is aware, we have done everything to facilitate the transfer of designs and we shall continue to do so. He also knows that we have done a great deal to enable Swan Hunter to obtain orders and to bring them forward so that it could do so.
§ Q4. Sir John Biggs-Davisonasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 8 July.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Sir John Biggs-DavisonEven if some Boers have been boorish, will Her Majesty's Government not be deterred from playing a helpful role in South Africa? Will my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary consider suggesting to Bishop Tutu that it would be helpful if he would denounce the politics of the necklace? Will he also suggest to the ANC that it would be helpful if it were to suspend its death threats against two other bishops who, with millions of black Africans not of the ANC, stand for non-violence and dialogue with the state President?
§ The Prime MinisterAgain I believe that most decent people everywhere totally and utterly condemn the necklace and the use to which it has been put in South Africa. It was for that and other reasons that the 165 Commonwealth conference called upon both sides for the suspension of violence—the precise thing for which my hon. Friend is calling—to bring about the conditions under which a dialogue can take place between the Government of South Africa and proper and full representatives of black South Africans. That is the way in the end that the problem will be solved, and in none other.
§ Mr. PikeWhen the Prime Minister said last week that it was for the South African people to determine what type of Government they wanted in South Africa and that that Government had to be acceptable to all people of whatever background, did she mean that she was prepared to support black majority rule? Will she spell that out clearly and support the line taken by the Church of England Synod yesterday in calling for sanctions?
§ The Prime MinisterThe Commonwealth conference and the communiqué have taken a similar view. Our role is to try to bring about the necessary negotiations and dialogue between the Government and the black South African people, and, indeed, all people in South Africa. If there were to be a constitutional convention, it would be for them to decide what kind of constitution would emerge and not for us to predetermine it for them.
The hon. Gentleman asked me about economic sanctions. No. I will not support full economic sanctions. I know of very few people who do, except those on the Labour Benches. I find it ironic that on the one hand people, including the Church, are calling for all help to end starvation, famine and poverty in South Africa, and on the other hand are calling for the very economic sanctions that would increase that.
§ Q5. Mr. Michael Colvinasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 8 July.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. ColvinHas my right hon. Friend noted that BBC television has at last presented the other side of the South African sanctions equation by reporting last night that some 450,000 young blacks in the Homelands may well die of starvation if the faltering economy of South Africa does not soon recover? Does she agree that positive measures to aid all South Africans would do much more to assist that country to a true democracy than would wielding a big stick? Does she also agree that it is high time that leaders on all sides in South Africa learnt who their real friends were and stopped indulging in their favourite pastime of shooting themselves in the foot?
§ The Prime MinisterI heard of the broadcast to which I think my hon. Friend is referring. It was a BBC report on Operation Hunger in South Africa and a Mrs. Pearlman who runs it was broadcasting and pointed out the difficulties already in South Africa where some people, with the uncertainty of the present economic circumstances, are returning to the Homelands and are not able to support their families as they have done. She went on to say:
Sanctions would probably immediately double our normal death rate of 50,000 children under the age of 5 per year, and they could he placing at least another 400,000 children under 15 at risk.We do not wish to go that way.
§ Mr. EwingIs the Prime Minister aware that tomorrow her predecessor as leader of the Tory party the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath) will celebrate his 70th birthday? Will the Prime Minister convey our good wishes that the right hon. Gentleman will long continue to represent with strength and vigour the human face of the Conservative party, which is more important now than ever in view of her inhuman approach to almost every subject?
§ The Prime MinisterI gladly wish my right hon. Friend well, and a very happy birthday. He is as much against economic sanctions as I am.