HC Deb 01 July 1986 vol 100 cc813-5
10. Mr. Marlow

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what representations he has received on the intended incentive effect of family credit.

13. Ms. Clare Short

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what consultation process is being undertaken on his proposals for family credit.

Mr. Fowler

We have received a number of representations on the incentive effects of family credit, as well as on other matters, as part of the consultation process which began with the issue of the Green Paper last year. More recently, as part of our reconsideration of the payment mechanism for family credit, we have had further discussions with a number of organisations that are closely affected. As already announced, following that reconsideration the Government have decided that family credit will be paid direct, rather than with wages, when the new scheme is introduced in 1988.

Mr. Marlow

I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply, but will he expand on it a little? If a man goes out to work and family credit is payable, I understand from what my right hon. Friend says that it will be payable to the mother. If the woman goes out to work and the man stays behind, will family credit be payable to the husband, or do the Government take the view that the housewife is more committed to the welfare of her children than her house husband? If the Government take that sexist view, would they like to clear themselves with the European Court of Justice to save themselves future embarrassment, or do they take the view that the European Court of Justice has no status on this issue, or that, if it has any status, it should not have any such status?

Mr. Fowler

I am glad to be able to reassure my hon. Friend that the position is the same as with family income supplement. I think my hon. Friend will welcome the fact that under the family credit proposals we are providing £200 million extra for low-income families in this country, and we estimate that that will affect about 200,000 additional families.

Ms. Short

Does the Secretary of State admit that the real policy underlying this proposal is to try to force down wage levels by paying family credit through the employer, thereby encouraging employers, in addition to the other methods that the Government are using, to force down the wages of the low paid? Is that not what this is all about?

Mr. Fowler

I think that that is entire rubbish. Had the hon. Lady had more time to reflect on what she was about to say, perhaps she would not have uttered it. We are directing £200 million extra to low-income families. I should have thought that was exactly what anyone of any sense anywhere in the House would want to do.

Mr. Ralph Howell

What is my right hon. Friends latest estimate of the saving that will accrue due to the passing of the Social Security Bill?

Mr. Fowler

I cannot give a figure of that kind at this time.

Mr. Meacher

Now that the Government have been forced to back off from their ill-advised and unpopular proposals, not only on family credit but on SERPS, the 20 per cent. housing benefit cut, discretionary disability payments, the 2 per cent. personal pensions bribe and now social fund appeals, is it not time that the Secretary of State recognised that everywhere outside this wet House of Commons the Bill is universally detested? Now that his last three years' work has crumbled into a ragbag of disconnected cuts without logic or structure, should he not do the honourable thing and either withdraw the Bill or resign?

Mr. Fowler

I think that the hon. Gentleman should know, and perhaps does know, enough about the House of Commons procedure to realise that some of these things will come back and some of these things may be put right. My hon. Friends, in Committee and on Report, if I may say so, having won entirely the argument with the hon. Gentleman on the Social Security Bill, I am bound to say that I think the Bill will do what it set out to do, which is to direct more help to people in real need.

Mr. Yeo

Contrary to what the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) says, is my right hon. Friend aware that there has been a very warm welcome for the way in which the Government have allowed a change in the intended method of payment of family credit? This is seen as an example of the Government's flexibility and sensitivity to the needs of this group.

Mr. Fowler

I think that that is right. Had we accepted the amendment tabled on Report by the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) we would have had the worst of every conceivable world. We have changed, and I make no apology for that, but what we have not done is to change in the remarkably foolish way that the hon. Gentleman proposed.