Teachers' Dispute (Hansard, 26 February 1986)

§ 2. Mr. Strang
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received about the effects of the teachers' action in support of their campaign for an independent pay review; and if he will make a statement.

§ 6. Mr. Wilson
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a further statement on the teachers' dispute.

§ The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind)
I receive a great many representations which deplore, as I do, the immense damage being caused by teachers' action in this dispute. Further escalation now will not bring a settlement of the dispute any closer. Only by realistic negotiation will a solution be found.

§ Mr. Strang
Does the Secretary of State recognise that, in addition to the real harm to which he has already referred, teachers and parents are alarmed at the prospect of disruption to this year's O-grade and higher examinations? Is he also aware that the teachers are more determined than ever and that the Government have a responsibility to provide education for our children? The Educational Institute of Scotland is prepared to negotiate when new proposals are put forward, and the one thing that is needed to settle the dispute is a new initiative from the Government. When will the Government bring forward a new initiative?

§ Mr. Rifkind
The hon. Gentleman is concerned about the damage that could be done to examinations by the disruption that the teachers are proposing. That must bear heavily on the individual teachers if they carry out the kind of threat that is being made. I hope that, on reflection, they will decide that that would not be appropriate.
As to the way in which this matter can be resolved, I remind the hon. Gentleman that all the education authorities—Labour-controlled as well as Conservative-controlled—have insisted that any outcome of this dispute must involve a package covering conditions of service as well as pay. However, although the Scottish Secondary Teachers Association has shown its willingness to think on those terms, the EIS refuses to do so. Given that all the education authorities are calling for such a joint package covering both aspects, I hope that Her Majesty's Opposition will call for such a solution.

§ Mr. Wilson
Does the Secretary of State recall that some six weeks ago, when he was appointed to his present high office, there was hope that he, as a new broom, would be able to look afresh at the teachers dispute? Notwithstanding what he has said, what initiative does he propose to take as a response to the meeting that he had with the Scottish churches? Does he not realise that many parents, not to mention teachers, were looking towards negotiations between himself and the churches to come up with a settlement?

§ Mr. Rifkind
The hon. Gentleman will recall that after the meeting the Church representatives said that, like me, they found the meeting to have been useful in helping to clarify a number of points. At that meeting I said that the objectives of both the education authorities and the Government on conditions of service make it right and proper that those who wish to see changes in conditions of service and contractual matters should be dealt with on a flexible basis. We accept that if the teachers do not receive all that they would like on pay, the other changes that many would wish to see in the education service may have to take that into account. Compromise is required all round. I emphasise that the EIS must show flexibility. It has not yet put a claim on the table or shown any willingness to consider conditions of service as part of the package, despite reported signs that its leader, Mr. John Pollock, has suggested that this might be appropriate.

§ Sir Hector Monro
To a parent or any unbiased observer, it is incredible that the EIS will not discuss the favourable terms that my right hon. and learned Friend has offered it. Does he hope to have meetings in the next two weeks or so that will bring this unfortunate dispute to a conclusion, bearing in mind that all the weight of evidence now is that the teachers, parents and others have had more than enough of this strike

§ Mr. Rifkind
My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the £125 million of new resources that the Government have said would be available for teachers' salaries on top of what might be negotiated in the normal way. It is also worth pointing out that Scottish teachers should reflect on the fact that their colleagues in England and Wales have today balloted by a two to one majority in favour of an interim settlement on the basis of the resources available in England and Wales, which are comparable to the resources available in Scotland.

§ Mr. Pollock
May we take it from the previous exchanges that my right hon. and learned Friend still values the good intentions of the Churches in their desire to act as honest brokers in this—

§ Mr. Douglas
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
I know that there is another question on the Order Paper about this.

§ Mr. Pollock
Do the Government still value—

§ Mr. Douglas
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Does it arise out of this question?

§ Mr. Douglas
Yes it does. There seems little point in tabling questions if hon. Members are called beforehand to ask supplementary questions on the exact wording of those questions.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. This question is on the effects of the teachers' strike for an independent pay review. I judge that the supplementaries are in order. However, I draw the attention of the House, as I was about to when the first supplementary question was asked, to the fact that there are subsequent questions—Nos. 12 and 13—on this matter.

§ Mr. Pollock
May we take it from the earlier exchanges that my right hon. and learned Friend values the efforts of the Churches to act as honest brokers in this unhappy affair? At the same time, will he take pains to 928 emphasise that real progress depends entirely on the parties directly involved in the dispute negotiating. and seeking a reasonable and responsible settlement?

§ Mr. Rifkind
My hon. Friend is correct. The outcome to the problem has to be primarily for the employers and the employees. I emphasise to the Opposition and those who criticise the Government that the education authorities across the political spectrum have emphasised the need for package proposals covering conditions of service as well as pay. The Government have shown their willingness, in an unprecedented way, to help in the dispute by offering at this stage, before any claim is put forward, no less than £125 million of new resources.

§ Mr. Speaker
I must ask the House to keep off the subject of Churches in this question.

§ Mr. McKelvey
Does the Secretary of State understand that his free market economy is not working in connection with the supply of teachers? Does he share my concern about the recent loss of teachers in Kilmarnock academy, and, in particular, the loss of a biology teacher who has just gone into industry for a 65 per cent. increase in salary? When will the Secretary of State meet the EIS and start negotiating properly to ensure that there is an independent inquiry, which may not resolve that anomaly, but will at least get the teachers back to work?

§ Mr. Rifkind
The hon. Gentleman is correct to say that there are certain shortages of mathematics and science teachers. However, when considering the whole of the teaching profession, there are far more qualified and able people wishing to take up posts in teaching than there are posts available. The teacher's unions would be the first to reject any suggestion that differential salaries should be paid to teachers in different departments. The shortages of teachers in any areas could be corrected if the unions were prepared to contemplate such action. There is not, however, the slightest suggestion that the teachers' unions are interested in that course of action.

§ Mr. Henderson
Does my right hon. Friend know that a number of parents cannot understand why the teachers, who have a just claim for more money, do not appear to be picking up last year's normal annual increment, and the forthcoming year's annual increment, which, I understand, is available without strings attached? Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that that is a sensible basis on which to start negotiations, with all the factors involved, if the teachers want a relative increase in wages in relation to other groups of graduate workers in local government?

§ Mr. Rifkind
My hon. Friend is correct, and Scottish teachers must be asking themselves whether the tactics of their union negotiators are correct as those tactics have led to no increase in their pay packets during the dispute. That cannot be in the teachers' interest, nor is it a necessary part of the dispute.

§ Mr. Roy Jenkins
Is the right hon. Gentleman able to take some independent initiative on this matter, which many hon. Members hoped for when he was appointed to his position, or is he tied across the board, like a tin to a cat's tail, to the policies of the Secretary of State for Education and Science, which show every sign of being an unprecedented disaster for education at all levels?

§ Mr. Rifkind
The right hon. Gentleman would be the first to admit that conditions of service and matters 929 affecting contracts of employment are quite distinct in Scotland, and clearly any solutions to these problems would be geared to Scottish requirements. However, if the right hon. Gentleman is seeking to raise the matter of overall resources for teachers' pay, he would be the first to accept that the teachers' unions in the various parts of the United Kingdom would be the first to draw attention to any significant difference between the pay offered to teachers in Scotland and that offered to those in England. Whichever group was offered more, the other unions would expect equity and parity of treatment. The right hon. Gentleman would not dispute the accuracy of that view.

§ Mr. Hirst
With practically every secondary school in my constituency affected by strike action, may I remind my right hon. Friend of the deep anxiety felt by parents and pupils alike, as well as the anxiety felt by many reasonable teachers, who want to see an end to the strike? Does my right hon. Friend agree that while the teachers' demand for a more realistic salary structure is a legitimate one, it must be accompanied by fair and reasonable conditions of service which avoid a recurrence of what has happened? As this wretched dispute has dragged on for nearly 18 months, will my right hon. Friend personally intervene to get negotiations under way?

§ Mr. Rifkind
I assure my hon. Friend that I am very willing to do all that is in my power to help bring the dispute to an early end. If teachers wish to be paid for the work that they do, it is not unreasonable that their contracts and conditions of service should also reflect what they actually do.

§ Mr. Millan
The Secretary of State talks as though the £125 million were Government money, but will not the bulk of it have to come from local authorities and thus from ratepayers? In any event, does he appreciate that 10 per cent. spread over four years on top of an indeterminate base will not settle the dispute and that more money must be put on the table? Will he take an initiative in that respect in the hope of bringing forward what he calls sensible negotiations?

§ Mr. Rifkind
The £125 million is new Government money which the Government are prepared to provide for local authorities to help finance increases in teacher's salaries above that which would be negotiated in the normal way. It would represent an average of about £1,000 in the salary of a teacher in Scotland. [HON. MEMBERS: "Over four years."] It would mean that at the end of that period a teacher would have £1,000 more than he would otherwise have had. I think that most people would acknowledge that that is a fairly significant increase. I genuinely put it to the right hon. Gentleman that the Government's proposal and the additional sums to which I have referred should surely be the basis for negotiations to begin between the teachers unions and the education authorities.

§ Sir Russell Johnston
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, fair or not, there is great disappointment that there has been no movement since he became Secretary of State for Scotland? Will he consider convening all-party discussions with the teachers to see whether there is any way of ending the long deadlock in a spirit of compromise? Does he agree that unless there is a 930 settlement by the end of March we look set to have a strike lasting until the next general election, with irreparable damage to schoolchildren?

§ Mr. Rifkind
I think that there is, indeed, all-party agreement that an outcome to the dispute must be a package including conditions of service as well as pay. If the hon. Gentleman can make representations to the EIS to the effect that it should accept that as an essential part of any satisfactory outcome I think that that would enable significant progress to be made.

§ Mr. Bill Walker
Is my right hon. Friend aware that not only are parents fed up with the disruption of teaching, but they are terribly concerned about the possibility of this year's examinations producing disastrous results for the children's futures? Will he confirm that he does not rule out the possibility that he may be required to take measures to have the necessary powers for him to impose on the teachers' unions a review of the conditions of service under which they now work and are remunerated—

§ Mr. Speaker
Briefly, please.

§ Mr. Walker
—so that teachers are adequately rewarded for the work that they do?

§ Mr. Rifkind
With regard to examinations, I think that the Scottish Examination Board should be congratulated on the splendid work that it is doing in trying to ensure that the maximum possible number of markers will be available. The latest estimate suggests that slightly more than two thirds of the necessary number will be available. Although that will not prevent all disruption, it will ensure that the bulk of the work is properly done.

§ Mr. Ewing
Is the Secretary of State aware that the difference between him and the leaders of the EIS is that they enjoy the overwhelming support of their members for the action that they are taking, whereas he enjoys no support from anyone in Scotland for what he is doing about the dispute? Is he further aware that since he took up his high office he has done absolutely nothing to bring about a resolution of the dispute, despite the promises that he made when he was appointed? He rightly referred to John Pollock's statement at Galashiels yesterday. Many I now plead with him to take up the offer made by Mr. Pollock yesterday in asking for a substantial offer to be made so as to allow negotiations to begin? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that if he does not take up that offer he will be solely responsible for the severe and serious damage being done to education in Scotland?

§ Mr. Rifkind
The hon. Gentleman would have made a more positive and helpful contribution to the resolution of the dispute if he had given his unqualified support to Strathclyde, Central and Fife regional councils in their demand, with other local authorities, that the EIS should accept a package involving conditions of service a well as pay. If the hon. Gentleman is seriously interested in helping to resolve the dispute, let him support the Labour education authorities.