§ 7. Mr. Ray Powellasked the Paymaster General how many people were unemployed in May 1979; and how many are currently unemployed in the United Kingdom.
§ 13. Mr. Allen McKayasked the Paymaster General how many people are unemployed in the United Kingdom; and if he will make a statement.
§ Mr. Kenneth ClarkeOn 9 January the number of unemployed claimants in the United Kingdom was 3,407,700. An estimated 1,218,900 people were claiming unemployment benefits in May 1979.
§ Mr. PowellI am surprised that the Paymaster General can adopt an attitude of complacency when he is announcing such figures to the House. In Ogmore, the unemployment figure was 3.7 per cent. in 1979. It is now 18.7 per cent., and in some areas 25 per cent. of the work force are out of work. When will the Minister listen to my right hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, who suggested in his speech last weekend that if we began 179 to spend money on roads, schools, hospitals, sewers and other social improvements, unemployment might be substantially reduced? The unemployment figure is as frightening to my constituents as was the Prime Minister's speech last night, when she said that she would continue in office. If she continues in office much longer, everybody will be unemployed by the time she leaves it.
§ Mr. ClarkeThere has been a steady growth in employment since 1983 — [Interruption]. Of course there has. Obviously we need to generate more employment to tackle the problem. The hon. Gentleman's constituency has been affected by coal mining closures. I do not know to what extent he believes that Ogmore's problems will be solved by spending more money on roads, schools, houses and the other projects which his right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer appears to think will solve all our problems. I trust that the work of the new enterprise agency and the training schemes that are being promoted by the National Coal Board in South Wales will have the effect of stimulating again the economy of the valleys.
§ Mr. Allen McKayWhen does the Paymaster General expect the growth in employment to reach my constituency where unemployment is over 20 per cent.? When does he expect the unemployment figure to peak, and at what figure? When does he expect that figure to return to the level at which it stood in 1979?
§ Mr. ClarkeThe number of people who are being placed in jobs by our jobcentre in the Barnsley travel-to-work area is increasing substantially, although it needs to be further increased. By coincidence, the hon. Gentleman also represents a coal mining constituency. I hope that he will encourage his constituents to take more advantage than they have done so far of the training oportunities that are provided by our skillcentres, financed by the National Coal Board, which will help to revive the economy of the area.
§ Mr. Andrew MacKayIs my right hon. and learned Friend absolutely certain that these figures are accurate? In Bracknell in my constituency 7 per cent. of the work force is allegedly unemployed, yet at the jobcentre there is a large number of unfilled vacancies. All the employers express concern that they cannot find the right kind of people for the jobs for which they advertise.
§ Mr. ClarkeI am satisfied that the figures are accurate when people understand clearly what they represent. We are always quite clear when we say what it is that we are measuring. I agree with my hon. Friend that there are large parts of the country, particularly in the south and in the midlands, where it is perplexing to find that there are large numbers of unemployed people when employers say that they are short of labour. When we try out new schemes in pilot areas, we discover that considerable success can be achieved by directing the long-term unemployed to jobs or to training after they have been contacted and given help and support.
§ Mr. BudgenWill my right hon. and learned Friend estimate how many people would price themselves into work if the wages councils were to be abolished?
§ Mr. ClarkeThe estimates vary between 8,000 and 300,000. We have made proposals for the reform of the wages councils, but I agree with my hon. Friend that when 180 setting the rate of pay for jobs one must take into account the fact that people will be paid for jobs so long as their pay does not exceed the value that they add to the business.
§ Mr. WigleyWill the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell my constituents in the county of Gwynedd, where unemployment is over 20 per cent., and where there have been no coalmine closures, how countries such as Sweden and Norway are able to keep their unemployment at a fraction of ours and why we have failed completely to bring ours down?
§ Mr. ClarkeI do not have time to debate the experience of Sweden, which is not quite so straightforward and untroubled as the hon. Gentleman implies. The problem of rising unemployment exists throughout western Europe. Many countries are taking the same measures as ourselves, and many of them are imitating the measures that we have taken on both the economic and employment fronts. We are creating more new employment in this country than is being created in the rest of the European Community put together.
§ Mr. NichollsWill my right hon. and learned Friend agree that one can make sense of the unemployment statistics only if one looks at the employment statistics? If one person in seven is unemployed, it means that 86 per cent. of the work force are employed, and that this country has a greater proportion of its work force in work than any other European country.—[Interruption.] Should not my right hon. and learned Friend be emphasising that point as well?
§ Mr. ClarkeShouts drowned my hon. Friend's valuable last point, which is that a higher proportion of people are in work in this country than in any other western European country. It is also the case, of course, that the size of our labour force is still growing, which is why, although we are creating many new jobs, we are still having difficulty in getting on top of the unemployment figures.
§ Mr. PrescottDoes the Paymaster General accept that the growth in population during the period for which the Labour party was in office was twice as great as in this Government's period of office? I ask him this simple question. While most of the increases in jobs have been in part-time equivalents, can he put that into full-time equivalents and accept, as the Bank of England does, that, with the increase in jobs which we have seen since 1983, it would take over 50 years to reach the level of employment that his Government inherited in 1979?
§ Mr. ClarkeDemography, I agree, has acted against both Governments, Labour and Conservative. There is a growth in the labour market, it is continuing, and it will end, I think, in three or four years' time. The fact remains that the Labour Government presided over a doubling in the rate of unemployment and left us deep in a recession and a financial and economic crisis which helped to make unemployment worse in the two years that followed. I cannot, without notice, turn part-time figures into full-time equivalents. The growth in part-time employment in the country goes back way into the 1970s. There has been a growth in part-time employment here and in other countries. It reflects changing social patterns. It is no good the hon. Gentleman trying to dismiss part-time employment, which is wanted by many people, as though part-time employees are not genuinely in jobs.
§ 8. Mr. Parkasked the Paymaster General what is his estimate of the total number of people currently in full-time employment; and what were the comparable figures for May 1979.
§ Mr. LangEstimates of full-time and part-time male employees in employment are not separately available for these dates. There were 16,450,000 male employees and female full-time employees in employment in Great Britain in September 1985. The comparable figure for June 1979 was 18,777,000.
§ Mr. ParkWe are frequently told in the House about a recovery, which has apparently been going on for several years. When will this recovery make an impact on the employment figures, since in my constituency there are areas where unemployment levels are at 36 per cent.?
§ Mr. LangThe hon. Member is unduly gloomy, because the information for which he asks paints an incomplete picture. His question ignores the fact that part-time female jobs are up over 500,000 since the 1979 election, and the numbers of self-employed are up by some 750,000 since June 1979.
§ Mr. Phillip OppenheimWill my hon. Friend recognise the fact that if it were not for the huge increase in the size of the work force over the past three or four years, unemployment would be substantially lower than it is now? Why does he think that Opposition Members are not prepared to recognise this?
§ Mr. LangMy hon. Friend is absolutely right. The labour market has increased by some 1.75 million in the last decade. The Opposition ought to recognise that fact.
§ Mr. James LamondIs the Minister aware that unemployment in the north-west of England is considerably above the national average and is under further threat because of the very weak MFA which has been negotiated by his Government, as is well known to some of the members of his ministerial staff?
§ Mr. LangI quite understand that there are areas in the country where the unemployment problem is very much more serious than it is in others. That is why the Government have designed a wide range of schemes to try to tackle the deep-rooted problems.
§ Mr. Nicholas WintertonWill my hon. Friend accept that the long-term potential for employment in the country is probably better now than it has ever been for the last 25 years because of the Government's policy relating to inflation and trade union reform? Will he do his best to ensure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not introduce any measures in the Budget, such as increasing dramatically excise and tax on hydrocarbons, which might prejudice the future potential for employment?
§ Mr. LangI note my hon. Friend's point and will certainly refer it to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that keeping the inflation rate down is of predominant importance, and is crucial in creating new employment.