HC Deb 10 December 1986 vol 107 cc647-58
Mr. Freud

I beg to move amendment No. 217, in page 5, leave out lines 17 and 18.

The First Deputy Chairman

With this it will be convenient to take the following amendments: No. 218, in page 5, line 20, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert— '(1) The Committee shall elect one of its number to serve as chairman and one of its number to serve as deputy chairman.'.

No. 219, in page 5, line 20, leave out The Secretary of State' and insert— 'The members from amongst themselves'.

No. 220, in page 5, line 22, at end insert— 'and either the Chairman or Deputy Chairman (if applicable) shall be appointed from amongst the members representing local education authorities.'.

No. 221, in page 5, line 28, at end, insert—

'Ineligibility for appointment

2A. No one who is a governor of, or recommended by, any private educational institution shall be eligible for appointment.'.

No. 222, in page 5, line 33, at end insert— '(1) The Committee shall maintain a register of members' interests, listing the relevant financial interests of each member of the committee, which shall be open to public inspection.'.

No. 223, in page 5, line 33, at end insert— 'but the allowance in each case shall be no more than £2,000 per annum.'.

No. 224, in page 5, line 37, leave out 'pension'.

No. 225, in page 6, line 7, at end insert— 'giving the reasons for his decisions.'.

No. 226, in page 6, line 7, at end insert— 'and shall lay an order before the House for affirmative resolution before any such payment under this paragraph shall be paid.'.

No. 227, in page 6, line 18, leave out 'such as the Committee may determine' and insert— 'at least half of the total membership excluding the Chairman.".

No. 228, in line 20, after 'members', insert— 'up to a total of two vacancies.'.

No. 229, in page 6, line 20, at end insert— '(3) All meetings of the Committee shall be conducted in public.'.

Mr. Freud

We are reaching the end of the debate and this is a unique opportunity to win a Division. We have come second 15 times and it is absolutely fair now to expect victory.

We feel that, in a bludgeoning, bullying, uncaring and dictatorial Bill, the least that can be done is to give better reasons for someone's elimination from membership of an advisory committee than that the Secretary of State feels that they are unfit.

Perhaps the more important of our two amendments is the one that seeks to take out the statement: The Secretary of State shall appoint one of the members of the Advisory Committee to be Chairman and may appoint one of them Deputy Chairman. Instead, we would insert a democratic electoral system. I suppose that the Secretary of State, bearing in mind that members of the advisory committee shall be appointed and shall not be paid, is frightened that they may not be of the right quality to elect a chairman or deputy chairman. We would resent that. Here is an ideal opportunity of practising democracy and introducing a small amount of democracy into what is basically a dictatorial Bill.

We suggest that the five to nine members be allowed to elect their own chairman by a single transferable vote, an admirable system. The members of the advisory committee will have their names put down on a piece of paper and will write from one to five or from one to nine on them. This will go on until someone reaches an overall majority. It may be possible that the people whom the Secretary of State will nominate for membership of the advisory committee will all vote for themselves as their first preference. In that event, there is a draw, one of them is eliminated and that person's vote goes to the second name on the list. This goes on being done until an overall majority is reached.

Mr. Rowe

Is it part of the scheme that when the result is finally known, the ballot papers should be burnt and a puff of smoke of the appropriate colour be emitted? If so, could this be regarded as a proper sequel to the Burnham committee?

Mr. Freud

The confidentiality of our electoral system does not need revision. What needs revision is our electoral system. If we could get smoke of an alliance colour, the idea would not be unattractive. At the moment, the available colours do not reflect either orange or black, so we have a problem.

This is a small thing to ask of the Secretary of State. It is the insertion of a small amount of democracy, simply so that the five to nine members of the advisory committee can at least be seen to have some authority and elect, among themselves, the chairman and the deputy chairman. We would not advise that the person who comes second should become deputy chairman, as it would be hard to find out who comes second unless one goes on using the alternative vote. There should be a separate election for the vice-chairman.

Mr. Dunn

The amendments proposed by the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, North-East (Mr. Freud) concern the make-up and proceeding of the advisory committee. The provisions in the schedule are all common form, and I can see no reason to disturb them. Throughout today, the Opposition have tried to make something of the provision that the Secretary of State may remove a member from office if that member is, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, otherwise unable or unfit to discharge the functions of a member. They claim that there is something sinister in that. In fact, it is entirely common form. It appears in the Employment and Training Act 1973 in relation to the Manpower Services Commission. It appears in the Health and Safety at Work Etc. Act passed by a Labour Government in 1974 in relation to the Health and Safety Commission. The Secretary of State would have to have evidence on which he could properly place an opinion that the member was unable or unfit to perform his duties. If he made an unreasonable decision, it could be challenged by way of judicial review.

The hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, North-East outlined a selection system for the election of chairman. To my dying day, I shall be opposed to a system of proportional representation.

Mr. Fisher

That is not on the amendment paper.

Mr. Dunn

I am grateful for that point.

The hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, North-East wants the committee to select its own chairman. The Committee understands that the members of the committee will be capable people, but the chairman must be prepared to devote more of his or her time and effort to the work of the committee. It must be right that the Secretary of State, bearing that in mind, should select the chairman of the committee. Therefore, I ask the Committee to reject the amendment.

Question put:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 142, Noes 222.

Division No. 40] [2.57 pm
Adams, Allen (Paisley N) Ashton, Joe
Anderson, Donald Atkinson, N. (Tottenham)
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Bagier, Gordon A. T.
Ashdown, Paddy Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barron, Kevin Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Beckett, Mrs Margaret McCartney, Hugh
Beith, A. J. McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) McKay, Allen (Penistone)
Bermingham, Gerald MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor
Bidwell, Sydney Maclennan, Robert
Blair, Anthony McTaggart, Robert
Boyes, Roland Madden, Max
Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) Martin, Michael
Bruce, Malcolm Maxton, John
Caborn, Richard Maynard, Miss Joan
Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) Meadowcroft, Michael
Campbell-Savours, Dale Michie, William
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Mikardo, Ian
Clay, Robert Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Clelland, David Gordon Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)
Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S) Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)
Coleman, Donald Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Conlan, Bernard Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Cook, Frank (Stockton North) O'Brien, William
Corbett, Robin Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Corbyn, Jeremy Owen, Rt Hon Dr David
Crowther, Stan Park, George
Cunliffe, Lawrence Parry, Robert
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) Pavitt, Laurie
Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) Penhaligon, David
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) Pike, Peter
Dixon, Donald Powell, Rt Hon J. E.
Dormand, Jack Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Dubs, Alfred Radice, Giles
Eadie, Alex Raynsford, Nick
Eastham, Ken Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S)
Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE) Richardson, Ms Jo
Evans, John (St. Helens N) Rooker, J. W.
Fatchett, Derek Ross, Ernest (Dundee W)
Field, Frank (Birkenhead) Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) Rowlands, Ted
Fisher, Mark Sedgemore, Brian
Flannery, Martin Sheldon, Rt Hon R.
Foot, Rt Hon Michael Shields, Mrs Elizabeth
Foster, Derek Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood)
Freud, Clement Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE)
Garrett, W. E. Silkin, Rt Hon J.
Golding, Mrs Llin Skinner, Dennis
Gould, Bryan Soley, Clive
Hamilton, James (M'well N) Spearing, Nigel
Hamilton, W. W. (Fife Central) Steel, Rt Hon David
Hancock, Michael Stott, Roger
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Strang, Gavin
Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) Straw, Jack
Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall) Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)
Howells, Geraint Thorne, Stan (Preston)
Hoyle, Douglas Tinn, James
Hughes, Roy (Newport East) Wallace, James
Hughes, Simon (Southwark) Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Janner, Hon Greville Wareing, Robert
John, Brynmor Weetch, Ken
Kirkwood, Archy Williams, Rt Hon A.
Lambie, David Winnick, David
Lamond, James Wrigglesworth, Ian
Leadbitter, Ted Young, David (Bolton SE)
Leighton, Ronald
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Tellers for the Ayes:
Livsey, Richard Mr. David Alton and
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) Mr. John Carthwright.
Alexander, Richard Benyon, William
Ancram, Michael Biffen, Rt Hon John
Ashby, David Biggs-Davison, Sir John
Aspinwall, Jack Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) Boscawen, Hon Robert
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Vall'y) Bottomley, Mrs Virginia
Baldry, Tony Boyson, Dr Rhodes
Bellingham, Henry Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard
Bendall, Vivian Brandon-Bravo, Martin
Brinton, Tim Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Brittan, Rt Hon Leon Jones, Robert (Herts W)
Bruinvels, Peter Kershaw, Sir Anthony
Bryan, Sir Paul Key, Robert
Buck, Sir Antony King, Roger (B'ham N'field)
Burt, Alistair King, Rt Hon Tom
Butcher, John Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Butterfill, John Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Carlisle, John (Luton N) Knox, David
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Cash, William Lang, Ian
Chalker, Mrs Lynda Latham, Michael
Chope, Christopher Lawler, Geoffrey
Churchill, W. S. Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel
Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n) Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) Lester, Jim
Colvin, Michael Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd)
Cope, John Lilley, Peter
Cormack, Patrick Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)
Couchman, James Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Currie, Mrs Edwina Lyell, Nicholas
Dorrell, Stephen McCrindle, Robert
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. Macfarlane, Neil
du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward MacGregor, Rt Hon John
Dunn, Robert MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute)
Durant, Tony Maclean, David John
Dykes, Hugh McLoughlin, Patrick
Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)
Eggar, Tim McQuarrie, Albert
Eyre, Sir Reginald Madel, David
Fallon, Michael Major, John
Farr, Sir John Malone, Gerald
Favell, Anthony Marland, Paul
Fenner, Dame Peggy Marlow, Antony
Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey Maude, Hon Francis
Fletcher, Alexander Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Fookes, Miss Janet Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Forman, Nigel Mayhew, Sir Patrick
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) Merchant, Piers
Forth, Eric Meyer, Sir Anthony
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman Miller, Hal (B'grove)
Fox, Sir Marcus Mills, Iain (Meriden)
Franks, Cecil Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon)
Fraser, Peter (Angus East) Mitchell, David (Hants NW)
Freeman, Roger Moate, Roger
Fry, Peter Morris, M. (N'hampton S)
Gale, Roger Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)
Galley, Roy Moynihan, Hon C.
Garel-Jones, Tristan Neale, Gerrard
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian Nicholls, Patrick
Glyn, Dr Alan Onslow, Cranley
Goodlad, Alastair Oppenheim, Phillip
Grant, Sir Anthony Ottaway, Richard
Greenway, Harry Page, Sir John (Harrow W)
Gregory, Conal Patten, Christopher (Bath)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abgdn)
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) Pattie, Geoffrey
Hannam, John Pawsey, James
Hargreaves, Kenneth Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Harris, David Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian
Harvey, Robert Portillo, Michael
Haselhurst, Alan Powell, William (Corby)
Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Powley, John
Hawkins, Sir Paul (N'folk SW) Prentice, Rt Hon Reg
Hayhoe, Rt Hon Barney Price, Sir David
Hayward, Robert Proctor, K. Harvey
Heathcoat-Amory, David Raffan, Keith
Henderson, Barry Raison, Rt Hon Timothy
Hicks, Robert Rathbone, Tim
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. Rhodes James, Robert
Hill, James Ridsdale, Sir Julian
Holt, Richard Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)
Howard, Michael Robinson, Mark (N'port W)
Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) Roe, Mrs Marion
Hubbard-Miles, Peter Rossi, Sir Hugh
Hunt, David (Wirral W) Rost, Peter
Hunter, Andrew Rowe, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas Rumbold, Mrs Angela
Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick Sainsbury, Hon Timothy
Jessel, Toby Sayeed, Jonathan
Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)
Shelton, William (Streatham) Thurnham, Peter
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Townend, John (Bridlington)
Shersby, Michael Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Silvester, Fred Trippier, David
Sims, Roger Twinn, Dr Ian
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Wakeham, Rt Hon John
Soames, Hon Nicholas Waldegrave, Hon William
Spencer, Derek Ward, John
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) Wardle, C. (Bexhill)
Squire, Robin Watts, John
Stanbrook, Ivor Wells, Sir John (Maidstone)
Stern, Michael Wheeler, John
Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) Whitfield, John
Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) Wiggin, Jerry
Stewart, Ian (Hertf'dshire N) Winterton, Nicholas
Stradling Thomas, Sir John Wolfson, Mark
Tapsell, Sir Peter Wood, Timothy
Taylor, John (Solihull) Woodcock, Michael
Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman Tellers for the Noes:
Thomas, Rt Hon Peter Mr. Michael Neubert and
Thompson, Donald (Calder V) Mr. David Lightbown.

Question accordingly negatived.

Schedule agreed to.

Schedule 2 agreed to.

Bill reported, without amendment.

3.10 pm
Mr. Kenneth Baker

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

This has been a long, thorough and exhaustive debate, but it has not been exhausting for me, for my Minister of State or for my Under-Secretary. We are ready for many hours of debate. I thank my hon. Friends for the help that they have given me during the course of the debate. The only closure during the past 24 hours was moved by the Liberal party. Until the point when members of the Liberal party moved that closure, no member of the Liberal or alliance parties had had anything to contribute. I was keen to ensure that, on such an important matter as the Bill, we should use neither the closure not the guillotine, although I was sorely tempted to do so as the speech made by the Hon. Member for Bolsover, (Mr. Skinner) reached the end of its second hour.

So great was the interest of Her Majesty's official Opposition that, for some Divisions, only 26 or 27 Members had managed to stay up. During Divisions, Conservative Members overwhelmed Labour Members by five to one. At two o-clock this morning, Conservative Members were joined on the Government Front Bench by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. We saw neither sight nor sound of the Leader of the Opposition. I thank all my hon. Friends for sharing my determination to see that the Bill goes on to the statute book.

The Bill is important because it marks the end of the discredited Burnham negotiating machinery. It marks the beginning of the period in which pay and conditions will be settled together. It re-establishes a proper role for the Secretary of State in determining schoolteachers' pay. Above all, it provides a way of bringing to an end the negotiating brawl that has disfigured the education system for the past two years and in which children have been the victim.

Under the 1944 Act, the Secretary of State is the guardian of educational standards. He is the upholder of the quality of education service. Right at the heart of the quality of that service stands the teacher. That is why, in discharging my responsibility, I have provided for an extra £600 million expenditure this year and next year for more pay for teachers. This will provide an average increase of 16.4 per cent. and will mean, when added to what has already been paid this year, an average increase of 25 per cent. over 18 months. This is a massive and generous increase, unique in the public sector.

Under my proposals, a good honours graduate—we need to attract such graduates to teaching—will start at £8,500 a year. If he or she becomes head of a big school, the salary will be over £30,000. Attracting good graduates into the profession is not enough. We need to keep them there. To motivate them, we need a structure with incentives, differentials and good promotion prospects—a structure that recognises and reward the good classroom teacher and those taking on additional responsibilities, and also provides flexibility for filling difficult posts, including those in shortage subjects.

I am pleased that there has been a measure of agreement on certain aspects of the Bill. I wish to stress the measure of agreement between all hon. Members. The agreement is that Burnham should go, that pay and conditions should be settled together, that a clear definition of teachers' jobs should be adopted, and that the Secretary of State should have a proper role in pay determination. However, we disagree fundamentally with Oppostion Members on the cost structure and pay machinery. They want to keep the same type of negotiating machinery that has failed to produce a settlement for two years—that machinery got the agreement of five unions in Coventry last July, the agreement of four in Nottingham and, now, the agreement of two. We propose an interim measure, an advisory committee that will receive evidence, including that from unions and local authorities, separately or jointly. I shall then consult the unions and the local authorities about the recommendations of the committee.

The Bill also will enable me to move to resolve the current impasse. I shall meet two of the unions and the local authorities over the next few days. My door will remain open. One union has already made some proposals about how it might move on structure. I shall need to explore those proposals and discuss them.

In the past 24 hours, I have heard a great deal about trade union negotiating rights and trade union rights. These rights will be respected under the new arrangements. The unions will not be shut out from involvement in the determination of pay. They will have an important part to play. The unreality of the present position is that I have been virtually excluded, even though I am expected to provide a great deal of the money.

Although we have heard so much about trade union rights, we have not heard much about children's rights or about parents' rights to access to an uninterrupted and high quality education. To achieve a balance between all these rights and to resolve the current debacle, we should ensure the passage of the Bill.

3.15 pm
Mr. Radice

I thank the staff and officers of the House who, despite the haste with which the Bill has been railroaded through the House, have provided hon. Members with the usual efficient service. I also pay tribute to my team and all of my parliamentary colleagues for their sustained efforts that have ensured that this highly controversial Bill received adequate parliamentary scrutiny. However, as it leaves the House, the Bill still remains dangerously authoritarian. It removes collective bargaining rights, substitutes a system of ministerial diktat and will make the teachers' dispute harder not easier, to solve.

The Bill, in its seven short clauses, seeks to overturn all existing negotiating procedures to abolish teachers' direct participation in the determination of their pay and conditions of service and to abolish the rights of local authorities to have a say in determining the pay and conditions of those whom they employ. In place of collective bargaining, the Secretary of State proposes to establish a committee to advise him on teachers' pay and their conditions of service. That committee can only be described as the Secretary of State's poodle. He will decide its membership. He will have the power to sack its members at will. He can decide the terms of reference for the committee's work. The Secretary of State is leaving nothing to chance. In the event of his rigged committee reaching conclusions that are not to his liking, he has given himself the power to ignore its recommendations and to impose his own settlement.

The Secretary of State cannot claim that the proposals are an exceptional one-off measure covering only the immediate pay deal. The Secretary of State is to take these sweeping powers for at least the next three years. Indeed, if we count the retrospective powers, he will hold those powers for four years. If the Bill comes into force, 400,000 teachers will have fewer bargaining rights than any other group of public servants. I remind the House that civil servants have the Whitley council machinery. Nurses, doctors and the armed forces have independent review bodies that publish their own reports. Teachers will not even have that.

The Secretary of State has failed to shake our view that the Bill rides roughshod over International Labour Organisation conventions as well as the European social contract. Despite all our efforts, it remains a tyrannical piece of legislation. However, the Opposition have reminded the Government, who are growing arrogant with power, of the need to maintain parliamentary rights and scrutiny. We have drawn public attention to a Bill that gives exceptional and unacceptable powers to the Secretary of State. The Minister has deliberately tried to mislead the House and the media about the nature of the Bill. [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman must not talk of an hon. Member "deliberately misleading" the House.

Mr. Radice

The Minister has misled the House about the nature of the Bill. If the Opposition had not discussed the Bill thoroughly, its true character would have remained hidden.

We have sent a signal to another place that the Bill needs careful scrutiny. It infringes basic rights. It gives unacceptable power to the Secretary of State. It makes a long-term settlement harder to achieve. It is a bad Bill and it does not deserve a place on the statute book.

3.19 pm
Mr. Freud

The Secretary of State began his speech with a cheap jibe at the performance of the Liberals. I begin by complimenting all Front-Bench Members on their stamina and courtesy throughout the night. The Secretary of State and his Ministers were here as long as most of us, as were the Opposition Front-Bench spokesmen, and all deserve recognition. As for the Secretary of State's jibe about the Liberals, I should point out that there were 20 groups of amendments on the Order Paper. We signalled on Second Reading that we would not seek to amend clause 1, so we did not enter the debate until the third set of amendments. The fact that 15 hours were spent on the first two is no good reason to blame us for not contributing.

Nevertheless, this is still a rotten little Bill. It abolishes negotiating rights. I remind the Secretary of State again that the more one can negotiate the greater is the safety valve and the less is the danger of industrial dispute. Genuinely, and for the sake of our children, I must say that I do not believe that the Bill will bring peace to our classrooms.

We have always favoured the repeal of the Remuneration of Teachers Act 1965. We have agreed that the Burnham machinery has clearly become inadequate and we have never denied that the Secretary of State has an undisputed right to legislate. We are saying that he should not do it in this way in a temporary measure for this long. We believe that this is a dangerously authoritarian Bill. In this dispute the Secretary of State surely has a duty to find common ground to aid a true settlement rather than alienating and demoralising the entire teaching profession as I believe he has done. Pushing a Bill of this kind through Parliament with such haste is not the best way to cultivate a good working relationship with the teachers.

In the context of employment legislation, I believe that the Bill is unprecedented. It means that 400,000 teachers will lose the rights that they have had in law since 1919. I am still waiting for a reply from the Minister of State as to which other group of workers — police, firemen, nurses, look where she will—is similarly disadvantaged in negotiations. The Bill directly contravenes two International Labour Organisation conventions, both signed and accepted by the Government. We need a new initiative from the Secretary of State to help solve the dispute, not the strong-arm tactics that we have seen. One wonders about the implications for other public sector employees. Is the Bill the thin end of the wedge? Who will be next? Will it be the Civil Service? Will the First Division Association be denied its negotiating rights?

Finally, the award for the worst point made in twenty-three and a half hours of debate must go to the Minister of State when she said that although a majority of the teachers had voted for the ACAS agreement she would not admit it because the majority of the unions had voted against it. If she genuinely believes that that view has any credibility, she may care to consider that the Government represent just one party while the Opposition represent the Labour party, the Liberal party, the Social Democratic party, the Scottish Nationalists, the Welsh Nationalists and the Ulster Unionists. On the hon. Lady's argument, we outnumber the Government party by six to one. What a rotten argument. If for no other reason than that, I hope that the House will deny the Bill a Third Reading.

Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—

The House divided: Ayes 235, Noes.152.

Division No. 41] [3.24 pm
Alexander, Richard Arnold, Tom
Ancram, Michael Ashby, David
Aspinwall, Jack Harvey, Robert
Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) Haselhurst, Alan
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Vall'y) Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael
Baldry, Tony Hawkins, Sir Paul (N'folk SW)
Bellingham, Henry Hayhoe, Rt Hon Barney
Bendall, Vivian Hayward, Robert
Benyon, William Heathcoat-Amory, David
Biffen, Rt Hon John Henderson, Barry
Biggs-Davison, Sir John Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Hind, Kenneth
Boscawen, Hon Robert Hirst, Michael
Bottomley, Peter Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia Holt, Richard
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Howard, Michael
Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard Hubbard-Miles, Peter
Brandon-Bravo, Martin Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Brinton, Tim Hunter, Andrew
Brittan, Rt Hon Leon Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Bruinvels, Peter Jackson, Robert
Bryan, Sir Paul Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick
Buck, Sir Antony Jessel, Toby
Burt, Alistair Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Butcher, John Jones, Robert (Herts W)
Butterfill, John Kershaw, Sir Anthony
Carlisle, John (Luton N) Key, Robert
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) King, Roger (B'ham N'field)
Cash, William King, Rt Hon Tom
Chalker, Mrs Lynda Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Chope, Christopher Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Churchill, W. S. Knox, David
Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n) Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) Lang, Ian
Colvin, Michael Latham, Michael
Cope, John Lawler, Geoffrey
Corrie, John Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel
Couchman, James Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Crouch, David Lester, Jim
Currie, Mrs Edwina Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd)
Dorrell, Stephen Lilley, Peter
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)
du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Dunn, Robert Lyell, Nicholas
Durant, Tony McCrindle, Robert
Dykes, Hugh Macfarlane, Neil
Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute)
Eggar, Tim Maclean, David John
Eyre, Sir Reginald McLoughlin, Patrick
Fallon, Michael McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)
Farr, Sir John McQuarrie, Albert
Favell, Anthony Madel, David
Fenner, Dame Peggy Major, John
Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey Malone, Gerald
Fletcher, Alexander Marland, Paul
Fookes, Miss Janet Marlow, Antony
Forman, Nigel Maude, Hon Francis
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Forth, Eric Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman Mayhew, Sir Patrick
Fox, Sir Marcus Merchant, Piers
Franks, Cecil Meyer, Sir Anthony
Fraser, Peter (Angus East) Miller, Hal (B'grove)
Freeman, Roger Mills, Iain (Meriden)
Fry, Peter Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon)
Gale, Roger Moate, Roger
Galley, Roy Morris, M. (N'hampton S)
Gardiner, George (Reigate) Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)
Garel-Jones, Tristan Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian Moynihan, Hon C.
Glyn, Dr Alan Murphy, Christopher
Goodlad, Alastair Neale, Gerrard
Grant, Sir Anthony Neubert, Michael
Greenway, Harry Nicholls, Patrick
Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) Norris, Steven
Gummer, Rt Hon John S Onslow, Cranley
Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) Oppenheim, Phillip
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) Ottaway, Richard
Hampson, Dr Keith Page, Sir John (Harrow W)
Hannam, John Patten, Christopher (Bath)
Hargreaves, Kenneth Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abgdn)
Harris, David Pattie, Geoffrey
Pawsey, James Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth Stewart, Ian (Hertf'dshire N)
Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian Stradling Thomas, Sir John
Powell, William (Corby) Tapsell, Sir Peter
Powley, John Taylor, John (Solihull)
Prentice, Rt Hon Reg Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Price, Sir David Temple-Morris, Peter
Proctor, K. Harvey Terlezki, Stefan
Raffan, Keith Thomas, Rt Hon Peter
Raison, Rt Hon Timothy Thompson, Donald (Calder V)
Rhodes James, Robert Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)
Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas Thurnham, Peter
Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) Townend, John (Bridlington)
Robinson, Mark (N'port W) Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Roe, Mrs Marion Trippier, David
Rossi, Sir Hugh Trotter, Neville
Rost, Peter Twinn, Dr Ian
Rowe, Andrew Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Rumbold, Mrs Angela Wakeham, Rt Hon John
Sainsbury, Hon Timothy Waldegrave, Hon William
Sayeed, Jonathan Waller, Gary
Scott, Nicholas Ward, John
Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') Wardle, C. (Bexhill)
Shelton, William (Streatham) Warren, Kenneth
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Watts, John
Shersby, Michael Wells, Sir John (Maidstone)
Silvester, Fred Wheeler, John
Sims, Roger Whitfield, John
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) Wiggin, Jerry
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Winterton, Nicholas
Soames, Hon Nicholas Wolfson, Mark
Spencer, Derek Wood, Timothy
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) Woodcock, Michael
Squire, Robin
Stanbrook, Ivor Tellers for the Ayes:
Stern, Michael Mr. David Lightbown and
Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) Mr Michael Portillo.
Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)
Alton, David Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)
Anderson, Donald Campbell-Savours, Dale
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Cartwright, John
Ashdown, Paddy Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Ashton, Joe Clarke, Thomas
Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) Clay, Robert
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Clelland, David Gordon
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Barron, Kevin Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S)
Beckett, Mrs Margaret Coleman, Donald
Beith, A. J. Conlan, Bernard
Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) Cook, Frank (Stockton North)
Bermingham, Gerald Corbett, Robin
Bidwell, Sydney Corbyn, Jeremy
Blair, Anthony Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)
Boyes, Roland Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly)
Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l)
Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N) Dewar, Donald
Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) Dixon, Donald
Bruce, Malcolm Dobson, Frank
Caborn, Richard Dormand, Jack
Dubs, Alfred Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Eadie, Alex Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)
Eastham, Ken Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)
Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE) Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)
Evans, John (St. Helens N) Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Field, Frank (Birkenhead) Nellist, David
Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Flannery, Martin O'Brien, William
Foot, Rt Hon Michael Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Foster, Derek Owen, Rt Hon Dr David
Foulkes, George Park, George
Fraser, J. (Norwood) Parry, Robert
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Pavitt, Laurie
Freud, Clement Pendry, Tom
Garrett, W. E. Penhaligon, David
Golding, Mrs Llin Pike, Peter
Hamilton, James (M'well N) Powell, Rt Hon J. E.
Hamilton, W. W. (Fife Central) Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Hancock, Michael Radice, Giles
Hardy, Peter Raynsford, Nick
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S)
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Richardson, Ms Jo
Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) Rooker, J. W.
Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall) Ross, Ernest (Dundee W)
Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Howells, Geraint Rowlands, Ted
Hoyle, Douglas Sedgemore, Brian
Hughes, Roy (Newport East) Sheldon, Rt Hon R.
Hughes, Simon (Southwark) Shields, Mrs Elizabeth
Janner, Hon Greville Shore, Rt Hon Peter
John, Brynmor Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE)
Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil Silkin, Rt Hon J.
Kirkwood, Archy Skinner, Dennis
Lamond, James Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury)
Leadbitter, Ted Snape, Peter
Leighton, Ronald Soley, Clive
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Spearing, Nigel
Livsey, Richard Steel, Rt Hon David
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) Stott, Roger
Lofthouse, Geoffrey Strang, Gavin
McCartney, Hugh Straw, Jack
McDonald, Dr Oonagh Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
McKay, Allen (Penistone) Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)
MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Thorne, Stan (Preston)
Maclennan, Robert Tinn, James
McTaggart, Robert Wallace, James
Madden, Max Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Mallon, Seamus Wareing, Robert
Marshall, David (Shettleston) Weetch, Ken
Martin, Michael Welsh, Michael
Maxton, John Winnick, David
Maynard, Miss Joan Young, David (Bolton SE)
Meacher, Michael
Meadowcroft, Michael Tellers for the Noes:
Michie, William Mr. Mark Fisher and
Mikardo, Ian Mr. Derek Fatchett.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Bill read the Third time, and passed.