§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This matter arises out of lies that haw been printed in the Wapping newspapers and one lie in particular that relates to yourself, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and to myself. We need to put the record straight.
This morning in The Sun and The Times—significantly only those two Murdoch newspapers—there was reference to a delayed Division at 7.30 pm on Wednesday. The Sun stated that I had been in the Lobby when the Deputy Serjeant at Arms, Major Peter Jennings, hurried over and turfed me out. The Sun referred to the "'Beast of Bolsover' Dennis Skinner", and said that Major Jennings turfed some of us out with his sword. I never saw the Deputy Serjeant at Arms.
The Sun also referred to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It said:
ignoring Deputy Speaker Harold Walker who was trying to start the Wednesday night discussion.I have had a word with you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as you know, and you have confirmed that you were not in the Chair on Wednesday night when that alleged incident took place.Furthermore, in The Times newspaper, the other half of the Wapping press, it said that they—the people in the Lobby—
succeeded in lopping 10 minutes off the Alliance's defence debate.That suggests that that Division must have taken about 22, 23, or 24 minutes. The usual time is 12, 13, 14, or 15 minutes. I can see that my hon. Friends are nodding I agreement with that, confirming that that is the usual time for a Division to last.Bearing these points in mind, I met the Deputy Serjeant at Arms this morning and asked him the following questions, which I would like to put on the record in case any of us, including you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would like to take up the matter with the newspapers. It is important that this matter is put on the record.
I wrote:
Dear Major Jennings,I am enclosing cuttings from the "Sun" and the "Times" (5/12/86). I ask you to confirm in writing that you never saw me in the Voting Lobby.I would like you to also confirm that you told me and Stan Orme in the Tea Room that you never saw me.Will you also confirm that the Official Report shows that the Vote began at 7.32 p.m. and the next debate began at 7.47 p.m. despite a point of order having been raised in the Chamber before the debate took place which suggests that the total time of the division was 14 minutes only.I have now received a reply from the Deputy Serjeant at Arms in which he says:Dear Mr. Skinner,Many thanks for your letter of today's date.I can confirm each of the points made in your letter. Since you did not see me either, you may care to know that I did not (of course) draw my sword!It is becoming a bit tiresome for newspapers like The Sun and The Times to be printing downright lies about what is happening in this place. The Deputy Serjeant at Arms has confirmed that he did not see me in the Lobby. The Sun newspaper suggested that you were in the Chair, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and you were not. The Times newspaper said that the Division lopped ten minutes off the subsequent Liberal debate and that was also untrue. 1254 The points have been confirmed by the Deputy Serjeant at Arms and it is high time that we made it clear to those newspapers that we expect them on occasions to make mistakes, but downright lies is another matter.I can only conclude that perhaps the reason why these comments were printed in the first place is that they were tipped off by the dirty tricks department of the alliance parties.
§ Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West)Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Few of us in the Chamber would be surprised at hearing that The Sun and The Times print lies. They have been doing that for a number of years. However, I have just been telephoned on precisely the same matter by another newspaper which said that it understood that I was also in the Lobby when the Serjeant at Arms drew his sword. I was not even in the House of Commons at the time. I was away from the House with, of course, the permission of the Whips. I should like to know, along the lines mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), what action you propose to take.
§ Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark and Bermondsey)Further to the point of order. I have no knowledge of where the information came from. I have asked my hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace). We were the two tellers for our party at that vote. So that there can be no confusion, my clear recollection is that there was a discussion between the Clerk at the Table and the then sitting Deputy Speaker, not yourself, about what should be done about the delay that was regarded as going on in the Lobby. There was an order—I have not checked in the Official Report—by the then Deputy Speaker, that the Serjeant at Arms should inquire as to what was causing the delay. The Serjeant at Arms on duty began that exercise. Subsequent to that, the hon. Members remaining in the Lobby who were, to my recollection, all Labour Members, including the hon. Member who was mentioned—[HON. MEMBERS: "He was not there."] A group of Members, all Labour Members, had stayed in the Lobby. They then came out quickly. I would guess that there was a delay of some minutes, but it was certainly not as long as 10 minutes. There was the unusual occurrence of the Deputy Speaker in the Chair requesting the Serjeant at Arms to inquire as to what was causing the delay. The story is probably partially accurate and partially inaccurate——
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker)Order. The hon. Gentleman is seeking to turn this into a matter of debate. We cannot have that. The matter has gone sufficiently far for me to express a view on it.
I should say to the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) that I cannot know, nor do I think that it would be sensible for me to seek to find out, how the story came to be in the newspapers to which reference has been made. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) for drawing it to my attention. I was unaware of the report in the newspapers until he mentioned it to me. Indeed, so far as there is a reference to myself, I shall have to reflect on that point to see whether there is any need for me to pursue it further. The hon. Gentleman has done the House a service by drawing it to our attention and I hope that the publishers will take full account of what he and others have said this afternoon.