Fraud (Hansard, 30 April 1986)

§ 39. Mr. Hirst
asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland whether the Crown Office follows any special procedures in prosecuting serious cases of fraud in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland
In June 1984 a fraud unit, comprising both legal staff and precognition officers, was established in the Crown Office in coordination with the police to investigate and prepare major fraud cases referred to it by procurators fiscal. The unit, with direct access to Crown counsel, has brought about a concentration of effort on and expertise to such cases and already has a number of very successful prosecutions to its credit. It is the intention of my noble and learned Friend the Lord Advocate to reinforce it.

§ Mr. Hirst
I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for his reply. Bearing in mind the complexity of major fraud cases and the inevitable problems confronting juries in trying to assess the evidence, does my hon. and learned Friend agree that it might be preferable to have a skilled assessor to assist the judge, rather than entrust this matter to a jury?

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland
This is a matter that was suggested by Lord Roskill. However, our experience in Scotland to date has not made me want to question the jury system for fraud trials. I have considerable sympathy with juries who have to sit through such trials for anything up to six or eight weeks. I am not aware of any major fraud cases in Scotland where it could be said, as a matter of objective assessment, that the jury had come to the wrong verdict.

§ Mr. Maxton
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Arising out of questions?

§ Mr. Maxton
Yes, Mr. Speaker. During the answer that he gave to me on question No. 2, concerning AIDS in Scotland, the Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. MacKay) made the accusation that I was condoning a criminal offence, in that I was condoning drug misuse. That is a very serious accusation which I hope the hon. Member will take the opportunity to withdraw, because when he reads the answer that he gave me—or, rather, the answer that he gave to the 935 question put by the hon. Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Henderson)—he will appreciate that he was not condemning drug misuse, he was condemning people who were at risk from AIDS.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. That is going into the question again. I am sure that the point has been well taken by the Minister. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] Order. If the Minister made that accusation, I am sure that he would wish to withdraw it—but I did not hear that.

§ Mr. John MacKay
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I shall read carefully the record of what I said, but my recollection is that I did not suggest that the hon. Member was condoning illegal activities. I did suggest that he was condoning drug abuse. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I hope that the hon. Member will also read what he said, because I suspect that he went a great deal further than he intended.

§ Mr. Ewing
Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Minister has just compounded the felony by admitting that he had accused my hon. Friend of condoning drug misuse. In its widest possible sense, drug misuse is a criminal offence and the Minister ought to be man enough to withdraw. Perhaps we are expecting far too much of the Minister in expecting him to rise above his usual standards, but he has an obligation to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the House at least to accept the standards of the House of Commons and to withdraw that very serious and scurrilous allegation.

§ Mr. Wallace
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. As the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. MacKay), has the advantage of sitting beside his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General for Scotland, perhaps the Solicitor-General could advise him whether there are any drug abuses that are not illegal. What he said appeared to imply that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) condones illegality.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. Let me deal with this matter. May I say that in the House of Commons very rough things are occasionally said in answer to questions. I am perfectly certain that if the Minister made an accusation against the honour of any Member, on whatever side of the House, he would wish to withdraw it.

Hon. Members
Withdraw!

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. That is a matter for the Minister.

§ Mr. John MacKay
I have made it quite clear that I shall check the record. If I said anything that I ought not to have said, I shall withdraw it. [Interruption.]

§ Mr. Speaker
Order.

§ Mr. Ewing
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I have not had an opportunity to check the record, either. The best thing for the House to do in a situation like this, as the Minister has said that he will check the record—indeed, I shall read these exchanges carefully—is to do that and see what happens tomorrow.

§ Mr. Ewing
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that the record is now to be checked, may we have an assurance that the record will remain as it was when the Minister made his allegations?

Hon. Members:
Withdraw.

§ Mr. Speaker:
Order. [Interruption.] Order. That will be a matter for me. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not make that accusation against me.

§ Mr. Maxton
I accept that the Minister may wish to check the record, but may I have his assurance that if he finds that what I have said is correct he will come to the House tomorrow afternoon and ask to withdraw his statement?

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I think that that is what the Minister said.

§ Mr. Ewing
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. During the statement and the exchanges on it. I reflected on the comments I made during points of order at the end of Scottish Question Time. I realise that what I said about the possible alteration of the record in relation to the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland may well be taken as a reflection on you, Mr. Speaker. Under no circumstances would I want that to remain on the record. I unreservedly withdraw my remarks and apologise for my intemperate comments.

§ Mr. Speaker
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his typically generous correction. I did not take his comments as a reflection on me. However, I am responsible for Hansard, and I would not allow anything like that to happen.