Lords amendment: No. 91, page 49, line 11, at end insert—
(6A) Without prejudice to the generality of section 47(1)(c) of this Act, the arrangements there mentioned may include provision for the making by the Company of payments in compensation for any loss, reduction or limitation of any such concession, benefit or privilege as is mentioned in subsection (6) above to the extent that provision in respect of the loss, reduction or limitation is not made by virtue of that subsection.".
§ Read a Second time.
§ Amendment proposed to the Lords amendment, in line 3, leave out 'may' and insert `must.—[Mr. Stott.]
§ Question put, That the amendment to the Lords amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 177, Noes 234.906
|Division No. 306]||[8.15 pm|
|Adams, Allen (Paisley N)||Deakins, Eric|
|Alton, David||Dewar, Donald|
|Anderson, Donald||Dixon, Donald|
|Archer, Rt Hon Peter||Dobson, Frank|
|Ashley, Rt Hon Jack||Dormand, Jack|
|Ashton, Joe||Douglas, Dick|
|Atkinson, N. (Tottenham)||Dubs, Alfred|
|Bagier, Gordon A. T.||Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.|
|Banks, Tony (Newham NW)||Eadie, Alex|
|Barron, Kevin||Eastham, Ken|
|Beckett, Mrs Margaret||Evans, John (St. Helens N)|
|Beith, A. J.||Ewing, Harry|
|Bell, Stuart||Fatchett, Derek|
|Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)||Faulds, Andrew|
|Bermingham, Gerald||Field, Frank (Birkenhead)|
|Bidwell, Sydney||Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)|
|Bray, Dr Jeremy||Fisher, Mark|
|Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E)||Forrester, John|
|Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)||Foster, Derek|
|Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E)||Foulkes, George|
|Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)||Fraser, J. (Norwood)|
|Bruce, Malcolm||Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald|
|Buchan, Norman||George, Bruce|
|Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)||Godman, Dr Norman|
|Campbell, Ian||Golding, John|
|Campbell-Savours, Dale||Gourlay, Harry|
|Canavan, Dennis||Hamilton, James (M'well N)|
|Carter-Jones, Lewis||Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)|
|Clark, Dr David (S Shields)||Hancock, Mr. Michael|
|Clarke, Thomas||Hardy, Peter|
|Clay, Robert||Harman, Ms Harriet|
|Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.)||Harrison, Rt Hon Walter|
|Cohen, Harry||Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith|
|Coleman, Donald||Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy|
|Cook, Frank (Stockton North)||Haynes, Frank|
|Cook, Robin F. (Livingston)||Healey, Rt Hon Denis|
|Corbett, Robin||Heffer, Eric S.|
|Corbyn, Jeremy||Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall)|
|Craigen, J. M.||Home Robertson, John|
|Cunningham, Dr John||Howells, Geraint|
|Dalyell, Tam||Hughes, Dr. Mark (Durham)|
|Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)||Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)|
|Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly)||Hughes, Roy (Newport East)|
|Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l)||Janner, Hon Greville|
|John, Brynmor||Penhaligon, David|
|Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)||Pike, Peter|
|Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald||Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)|
|Kennedy, Charles||Radice, Giles|
|Kilroy-Silk, Robert||Randall, Stuart|
|Kirkwood, Archy||Redmond, M.|
|Lambie, David||Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S)|
|Lamond, James||Richardson, Ms Jo|
|Leadbitter, Ted||Robertson, George|
|Leighton, Ronald||Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)|
|Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)||Rogers, Allan|
|Lewis, Terence (Worsley)||Rooker, J. W.|
|Litherland, Robert||Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)|
|Livsey, Richard||Rowlands, Ted|
|Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)||Sheerman, Barry|
|Lofthouse, Geoffrey||Sheldon, Rt Hon R.|
|Loyden, Edward||Shore, Rt Hon Peter|
|McCartney, Hugh||Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood)|
|McDonald, Dr Oonagh||Silkin, Rt Hon J.|
|McKay, Allen (Penistone)||Skinner, Dennis|
|McKelvey, William||Snape, Peter|
|MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor||Soley, Clive|
|McNamara, Kevin||Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)|
|McTaggart, Robert||Stott, Roger|
|McWilliam, John||Strang, Gavin|
|Madden, Max||Straw, Jack|
|Marek, Dr John||Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)|
|Marshall, David (Shettleston)||Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)|
|Martin, Michael||Thorne, Stan (Preston)|
|Mason, Rt Hon Roy||Tinn, James|
|Maxton, John||Torney, Tom|
|Maynard, Miss Joan||Wardell, Gareth (Gower)|
|Meacher, Michael||Weetch, Ken|
|Michie, William||Welsh, Michael|
|Mikardo, Ian||White, James|
|Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)||Wigley, Dafydd|
|Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)||Williams, Rt Hon A.|
|Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)||Wilson, Gordon|
|Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)||Winnick, David|
|Nellist, David||Woodall, Alec|
|Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon||Wrigglesworth, Ian|
|O'Brien, William||Young, David (Bolton SE)|
|Park, George||Tellers for the Ayes:|
|Patchett, Terry||Mr. Sean Hughes and|
|Pavitt, Laurie||Mr. Lawrence Cunliffe.|
|Alexander, Richard||Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A.|
|Alison, Rt Hon Michael||Bulmer, Esmond|
|Amess, David||Burt, Alistair|
|Ancram, Michael||Butler, Hon Adam|
|Ashby, David||Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)|
|Aspinwall, Jack||Carttiss, Michael|
|Atkins, Robert (South Ribble)||Channon, Rt Hon Paul|
|Atkinson, David (B'm'th E)||Chapman, Sydney|
|Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)||Chope, Christopher|
|Baldry, Tony||Churchill, W. S.|
|Banks, Robert (Harrogate)||Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n)|
|Batiste, Spencer||Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)|
|Beaumont-Dark, Anthony||Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)|
|Bellingham, Henry||Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)|
|Benyon, William||Cockeram, Eric|
|Biffen, Rt Hon John||Colvin, Michael|
|Biggs-Davison, Sir John||Conway, Derek|
|Blackburn, John||Cope, John|
|Body, Richard||Cormack, Patrick|
|Boscawen, Hon Robert||Corrie, John|
|Bottomley, Peter||Crouch, David|
|Bottomley, Mrs Virginia||Currie, Mrs Edwina|
|Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n)||Dickens, Geoffrey|
|Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)||Dorrell, Stephen|
|Boyson, Dr Rhodes||Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.|
|Brandon-Bravo, Martin||Dover, Den|
|Bright, Graham||du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward|
|Brinton, Tim||Dunn, Robert|
|Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes)||Durant, Tony|
|Browne, John||Emery, Sir Peter|
|Bruinvels, Peter||Evennett, David|
|Eyre, Sir Reginald||Murphy, Christopher|
|Fallon, Michael||Neale, Gerrard|
|Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey||Nelson, Anthony|
|Fletcher, Alexander||Nicholls, Patrick|
|Forman, Nigel||Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.|
|Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)||Ottaway, Richard|
|Franks, Cecil||Page, Sir John (Harrow W)|
|Fraser, Peter (Angus East)||Page, Richard (Herts SW)|
|Galley, Roy||Patten, Christopher (Bath)|
|Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde)||Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abdgn)|
|Garel-Jones, Tristan||Pawsey, James|
|Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian||Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian|
|Glyn, Dr Alan||Pollock, Alexander|
|Gower, Sir Raymond||Portillo, Michael|
|Grant, Sir Anthony||Powell, Rt Hon J. E. (S Down)|
|Gregory, Conal||Powell, William (Corby)|
|Griffiths, Sir Eldon||Powley, John|
|Grist, Ian||Prentice, Rt Hon Reg|
|Ground, Patrick||Price, Sir David|
|Grylls, Michael||Proctor, K. Harvey|
|Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)||Raffan, Keith|
|Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)||Raison, Rt Hon Timothy|
|Hampson, Dr Keith||Rhodes James, Robert|
|Harris, David||Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas|
|Hawkins, Sir Paul (SW N'folk)||Ridsdale, Sir Julian|
|Hayward, Robert||Rifkind, Malcolm|
|Heathcoat-Amory, David||Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)|
|Heddle, John||Robinson, Mark (N'port W)|
|Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.||Roe, Mrs Marion|
|Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)||Rossi, Sir Hugh|
|Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling)||Rost, Peter|
|Howarth, Gerald (Cannock)||Rowe, Andrew|
|Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford)||Rumbold, Mrs Angela|
|Irving, Charles||Ryder, Richard|
|Jessel, Toby||Sackville, Hon Thomas|
|Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey||Sainsbury, Hon Timothy|
|Kershaw, Sir Anthony||Sayeed, Jonathan|
|King, Roger (B'ham N'field)||Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)|
|King, Rt Hon Tom||Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')|
|Lamont, Norman||Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)|
|Lang, Ian||Shersby, Michael|
|Lawler, Geoffrey||Silvester, Fred|
|Lawrence, Ivan||Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)|
|Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel||Smyth, Rev W. M. (Belfast S)|
|Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd)||Soames, Hon Nicholas|
|Lightbown, David||Speed, Keith|
|Lilley, Peter||Speller, Tony|
|Lloyd, Ian (Havant)||Spencer, Derek|
|Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham)||Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)|
|Lord, Michael||Squire, Robin|
|Luce, Richard||Stanbrook, Ivor|
|Lyell, Nicholas||Stern, Michael|
|McCurley, Mrs Anna||Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)|
|MacGregor, Rt Hon John||Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)|
|MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire)||Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)|
|MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute)||Stewart, Ian (N Hertf'dshire)|
|Maclean, David John||Stradling Thomas, Sir John|
|McQuarrie, Albert||Sumberg, David|
|Madel, David||Tapsell, Sir Peter|
|Major, John||Taylor, John (Solihull)|
|Malins, Humfrey||Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)|
|Malone, Gerald||Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman|
|Marland, Paul||Temple-Morris, Peter|
|Mates, Michael||Terlezki, Stefan|
|Mather, Carol||Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.|
|Maude, Hon Francis||Thomas, Rt Hon Peter|
|Mawhinney, Dr Brian||Thompson, Donald (Calder V)|
|Mayhew, Sir Patrick||Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)|
|Mellor, David||Thurnham, Peter|
|Miller, Hal (B'grove)||Townend, John (Bridlington)|
|Mills, Iain (Meriden)||Tracey, Richard|
|Miscampbell, Norman||Twinn, Dr Ian|
|Mitchell, David (NW Hants)||Vaughan, Sir Gerard|
|Molyneaux, Rt Hon James||Viggers, Peter|
|Monro, Sir Hector||Waddington, David|
|Montgomery, Sir Fergus||Wakeham, Rt Hon John|
|Moore, John||Waldegrave, Hon William|
|Morris, M. (N'hampton, S)||Walden, George|
|Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)||Walker, Bill (T'side N)|
|Moynihan, Hon C.||Waller, Gary|
|Ward, John||Wolfson, Mark|
|Wardle, C. (Bexhill)||Wood, Timothy|
|Watson, John||Yeo, Tim|
|Watts, John||Young, Sir George (Acton)|
|Whitfield, John||Tellers for the Noes:|
|Whitney, Raymond||Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd and|
|Winterton, Mrs Ann||Mr. Michael Neubert.|
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Lords amendments No. 91 and 92 agreed to.
Lords amendment: No. 93, in page 51, line 32, after "(5)" insert
, as it applies to England and Wales
Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this we may take the following Lords amendments: No. 94, in page 51, line 34, at end insert—(bb) in subsection (5), as it applies to Scotland, for the word "designated" there shall be substituted the worth "passenger transport";".No. 96, in page 52, line 16, leave out from beginning to "and" in line 17.
No. 334, in page 133, line 9, after ("1") insert ("(a)to (d) and (f)")
No. 401, in page 152, line 10, after "paragraphs 1" insert "(a) to (d) and (f)"
§ Mr. Ridley
These amendments reinstate section 9(5) of the Transport Act 1968. That provision, which allows district councils to assist a PTE, and vice versa, was proposed to be repealed as it applies to Scotland because Scottish district councils no longer have transport functions. However, as a result of representations from the Strathclyde PTE, that under this power they enter into agreements with district councils for such matters as the cleaning and maintenance of bus shelters, it was decided to reinstate section 9(5) for Scotland, with a minor drafting change to alter the description of the area from "designated" to "passenger transport".
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Lords amendments Nos. 94 to 96 agreed to.
§ Lords amendment: No. 9, in page 52, line 19, leave out second "section" and insert "sections"
Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this we may take the following Lords amendments: No. 101, in page 54, lime 26, after "section" insertand section 9B of this ActNo. 103, in page 54, line 29, leave out "to the operator or and insert(b) references in this section and that section to the operator of, or to persons operatingNo. 104, in page 54, line 31, insert new clause—Consultation and publicity with respect to policies as to services.—. — (1) When considering from time to time the formulation of policies for the purposes of section 9A(1) of this Act, the Authority for a passenger transport area shall consult—(2) As soon as practicable after any occasion when they formulate new or altered policies for those purposes, the Authority concerned shall publish a statement of all policies so formulated by them on that or any previous occasion which for the time being apply in relation to the performance by the Executive for their area of their duty to secure services under section 9A(3).
and where the passenger transport area is in England and Wales the Authority shall also consult with the councils of the districts 907 comprised in that area about the requirements for transport arising out of or in connection with the exercise and performance by those councils of their functions as local education authorities or of their social services functions.
- (a) with every Passenger Transport Authority, county council or regional council whose area may be affected by those policies; and
- (b) either with persons operating public passenger transport services with in their area or with organisations appearing to the Authority to be representative of such persons;
(3) When the Authority publish such a statement, they shall send a copy of the statement—
in relation to the formulation of their policies on the occasion in question.
- (a) to each Authority or council whom they were required to consult under subsection (1)(a) above; and
- (b) to each of the persons or (as the case may be) organisations whom they consulted under subsection (1)(b) above;
(4) The Authority shall also—(a) cause a copy of the statement last published by them under subsection (2) above to be made available for inspection (at all reasonable hours) at such places as they think fit; and(b) give notice, by such means as they think expedient for bringing it to the attention of the public, as to the places at which a copy of that statement may be inspected.""inspected."Amendment (a) to the proposed Lords amendment No. 104, after subsection (1)(b), insert—(c) with persons resident in the areas affected by such policies".No. 125, in clause 61, page 59, line 43, at end insert—(3A) In formulating policies under subsection (1)(b) or (2)(b) above with respect to the descriptions of services they propose to secure under subsection (1)(a) or (2)(a) above, a council shall have regard to any measures they are required or propose to take for meeting any transport requirements in exercise or performance of—No. 126, in page 60, line 1, leave out subsection (4).
- (a) any of their functions as a local education authority or (as the case may be) as an education authority; or
- (b) any of their social services or (as the case may be) social work functions."
No. 132, after clause 61. insert the following new clause — Consultation and publicity with respect to policies as to services—.—(1) When considering from time to time the formulation of policies for the purposes of section 61(1)(b) or (2)(b) of this Act, any council to whom either of those provisions applies shall consult—
and where the council's area is in England and Wales the council shall also consult with the councils of districts comprised in their area.
- (a) with every Passenger Transport Authority, county council or regional or islands council whose area may be affected by those policies; and
- (b) either with persons operating public passenger transport services within their area or with organisations appearing to the council to be representative of such persons;(2) As soon as practicable after any occasion when they formulate new or altered policies for those purposes, any such council shall publish a statement of all policies so formulated by them on that or any previous occasion which they propose for the time being to follow in the performance of their duty to secure services under section 61(1)(a) or (as the case may be) under section 61(2)(a).(3) When any such council publish such a statement, they shall send a copy of the statement—
908 in relation to the formulation of their policies on the occasion in question.
- (a) to each Authority or council whom they were required to consult under subsection (1)(a) above; and
- (b) to each of the persons or (as the case may be) organisations whom they consulted under subsection (1)(b) above;(4) The council shall also—Amendment (a) to the proposed Lords amendment No. 132, after subsection (1)(b) insert—
- (a) cause a copy of the statement last published by them under subsection (2) above to be made available for inspection (at all reasonable hours) at such places as they think fit; and
- (b) give notice, by such means as they think expedient for bringing it to the attention of the public, as to the places at which a copy of that statement may be inspected."`(c) with persons resident in the areas affected by such policies'.No. 213, in clause 82, page 82, line 30, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—(b) of all authorities who are—No. 214, in page 82, line 37, at end insert—
in relation to any expenditure on transport for the purposes of or in connection with the exercise and performance of their functions as local education authorities or education authorities or (as the case may be) of their social services or social work functions;
- (i) local education authorities in England and Wales or education authorities in Scotland; or
- (ii)local authorities exercising, in England and Wales, social services functions or, in Scotland, social work functions;(2A) In subsection (2)(b)(ii) above "local authority" means—No. 285, in clause 120, page 117, line 12, at end insert—"securities", in relation to a body corporate, means any shares, stock, debentures, debenture stock, and any other security of a similar nature, of the body corporate;page 132, line 2, at end insert—"social services functions" means functions which are social services functions for the purposes of the Local Authority Social Services Act 1970;social work functions" means functions which are social work functions for the purposes of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968;
§ Mr. Ancram
I believe that these changes will be welcomed in all parts of the House. They place new duties on authorities to consult about their transport policies, to publish a statement of those policies and to liaise with one another to secure better co-ordination between social services, education and transport authorities on how best to meet all their transport requirements. When it left the House, the Bill contained certain consultation duties on county, regional and island councils, but not on PTAs, and co-operation duties on education and transport but not on social services authorities.
These amendments fill those gaps. They also ensure that county, regional and island councils which exercise all three functions must equally have regard to all their responsibilities when drawing up their transport policies. It was impressed upon my right hon. Friend in Standing Committee that a requirement on authorities to publish a statement of policies would usefully improve accountability to the electorate. These amendments do that while avoiding unnecessary burdens on authorities. The amendments also require PTAs, county, regional and island councils to consult each other where their policies may affect each other's areas. I am sure that this will be welcomed by authorities and passengers alike.
§ Question put and agreed to.909
Lords amendment:No. 98, in page 52, line 21, leave out subsections (1) to (4) and insert—
(1) It shall be the duty of the Authority for any passenger transport area to formulate from time to time general policies with respect to the descriptions of public passenger transport services they consider it appropriate for the Executive for their area to secure for the purpose of meeting any public transport requirements within their area which in the view of the Authority would not be met apart from any action taken by the Executive for that purpose.
(2) The Authority shall seek and have regard to the advice of the Executive for their area in formulating their policies under subsection (1) of this section.
(3) It shall be the duty of the Executive for any passenger transport area to secure the provision of such public passenger transport services as they consider it appropriate to secure for meeting any public transport requirements within their area in accordance with policies formulated by the Authority for their area under subsection (1) of this section.
(4) The Executive shall have power to enter into an agreement providing for service subsidies for the purpose of securing the provision of any service under subsection (3) of this section; but their power to do so—
Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this we may take the following Lords amendments: No. 122, in clause 61, page 59, line 28, after "county" insertwhich would not in their view be met apart from any action taken by them for that purpose;".
No. 123, in page 59, line 38, after "area" insert
which would not in their view be met apart from any action taken by them for that purpose;".
§ No. 124, in page 59, line 42, leave out subsection (3).
No. 127, in page 60, line 12, leave out subsections (5) and (6) and insert—
(5) A non-metropolitan district council in England and Wales shall have power to secure the provision of such public passenger transport services as they consider it appropriate to secure to meet any public transport requirements within their area which would not in their view be met apart from any action taken by them for that purpose.
(6) For the purpose of securing the provision of any service under subsection (1)(a) or (2)(a) or (as the case may be) under subsection (5) above any council shall have power to enter into an agreement providing for service subsidies; but their power to do so—
No. 329, in schedule 3, page 130, line 2, leave out subparagraph (a) and insert—
(a) subsection (1)(a) shall be omitted;
No. 330, in page 130, line 15, leave out paragraph 11 and insert—
11. In section 15A of that Act (control of Executive by Authority) subsection (1) shall be omitted.".
§ No. 331, in page 130, line 37, leave out "(1)" and insert "(3)".
§ No. 336, in page 133, line 31, leave out "(1)" and insert "(3)"
§ No. 390, in schedule 7, page 150, line 34, column 3, after "15" insert "subsection (1)(a),".
§ No. 391, in page 150, line 46, column 3, at end insert "Section 15A(1).".
§ Mr. Ridley
These amendments have an important purpose. On Report in another place the Government were asked to remove any possible scope for misunderstanding 910 about the roles of the PTA and the PTE which could conceivably arise from the drafting of the Bill The amendments seek to state the roles of the authority and its executive more clearly. I hope that the House will welcome it if I describe briefly what those roles are.
The PTA will be responsible for assessing the transport requirements which exist within its area. It will also be responsible for formulating general policies about the descriptions of services which should be secured to meet those requirements. It will then be the responsibility of the executive, the PTE, to secure the services which, in its professional judgment, it believes to be appropriate to implement the policies of the authority. It will have the power to do so by entering into agreements for service subsidies, subject to the tendering provisions of the Bill, but this power is to be exercised in accordance with the authority's general policies. The amendments also make clear the responsibilities of non-metropolitan authorities. If any hon. Member would like me to do so, I can go into those at length.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Lords amendments Nos. 99 to 106 agreed to.