HC Deb 24 October 1985 vol 84 cc413-5
6. Mr. Knox

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many men and women are in prison at present.

Mr. Hurd

On 18 October 1985 there were 45,404 males and 1,583 females held in prison department custody in England and Wales.

Mr. Knox

Does my right hon. Friend agree that these figures are much too high? Does he believe that it is either necessary or desirable to lock up so many people in prison?

Mr. Hurd

The figures have increased because of a surge in the first part of this year. The increase is the result of separate decisions in separate courts, but I agree that it is a disturbing surge. Since then there has been some relief, or some pause, but we cannot be in the least bit complacent about it.

Mr. Jim Callaghan

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of my constituents, Mr. Tony Mycock, has just served two years of a five-year sentence for an alleged burglary? Is he further aware that the BBC programme "Rough Justice" has evidence to prove that no such crime was ever committed and that the lady who made the allegations in the first place, a Miss Fitzpatrick, who is now living in America, has said that the whole affair was a figment of her imagination? Does he agree with Lord Devlin and the hon. and learned Member for Fylde (Sir E Gardner) that Tony Mycock is completely innocent of any crime? Can he tell the House exactly what he will do to ensure that Mr. Mycock, an innocent man, is released immediately—I repeat "immediately"—from gaol?

Mr. Hurd

I am aware of the case to which the hon. Gentleman refers. The lady in question has said various things at various times. I am looking urgently at the matter in the hope of finding a way to resolve it which will commend itself to all strands of opinion in the House.

Mr. Mark Carlisle

The figures given by my right hon. Friend disclose a substantial degree of overcrowding in prisons. Rather than believing that the answer is in further fettering the discretion of the courts in regard to penalties, may I ask my hon. Friend what is happening about the prison building programme?

Mr. Hurd

We are maintaining the prison building programme—it is on course. The current estimated cost is £360 million. As my right hon. and learned Friend knows, it consists of 16 projects, of which three have been completed, five are under construction and four are at detailed design stage. The 16 new prison establishments that I have mentioned will provide a total of about 7,700 new places. This is work that has been neglected over many years, but we now have it in hand.

Mr. Bermingham

Does the Minister agree that one way in which prison overcrowding could be tackled in part would be by the Government bringing forward legislation in line with the suggestion of the Select Committee on Home Affairs in a recent report to the effect that bail needs to be reconsidered both in its terms of reference and in regard to decisions in the Reading justices case and the Nottingham justices case, which might be overturned by legislation. The courts could then from time to time during a period of remand reconsider bail. In this way, some people would get out on bail and reduce the pressure on prison accommodation.

Mr. Hurd

I would need to consider that, but it did not sound appetising or encouraging from the description that the hon. Gentleman gave. Those who deserve prison sentences should get effective sentences, both as a means of punishment and for the protection of the public. For minor offences, the courts need to have in front of them a range of penalties, including alternatives to custody. It is important that the alternatives should be properly presented to them.

Mr. Douglas Hogg

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the excellent work being done at Morton Hall in my constituency, where low risk category C prisoners are kept in relaxed conditions? Does he agree that many prisoners in secure establishments could he kept properly in less secure establishments?

Mr. Hurd

Let me consider that.

Mr. Kaufman

Returning to the matter raised with the Home Secretary by my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Mr. Callaghan), may I ask him to be much more precise about when he can make a statement? He has said that he has been considering the case. It is a matter that has aroused widespread concern. That being so, if it were to turn out that the person is serving a sentence for a crime he did not commit, there would be great public anger if that man were not released as quickly as possible.

Mr. Hurd

I understand that. The right hon. Gentleman has put it fairly. It is important. It is not as straightforward as it seemed in the television programme. There is nothing unusual about that. It means that we need a bit of time, though not too much, to work out a sensible solution.

Mr. Maclennan

Whatever the position about those who have been convicted, is not the Home Secretary disturbed by the growing number of those held in custody on remand? What does he propose to do about that?

Mr. Hurd

I am aware of the problem. We are trying to reduce the long periods that people have to wait for trial. Next month we are beginning field trials in Birmingham, Bristol, Maidstone and Southwark to apply time limits to the waiting period before trial, a principle well known to the hon. Gentleman because it originated in his country of origin.