Museum of London Bill [Money] (Hansard, 21 November 1985)

§ Mr. Norman Buchan (Paisley, South)
It is rare for me to speak on a money resolution, although I was under the governance of Willie Ross for a long period. This narrow money resolution deals only with clause 4, because the major proposals on money under clause 3 are budgeted for in the £17 million available.
Under clause 4, the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England may make grants to the board of governors for the purpose of assisting the board's archaeological services. The major functions of the museum under clause 3 are already catered for, but the change from a one third share to a half share represents a substantial amount of money. About £700,000 will have to come from the £17 million that has been earmarked for museums and galleries under this and other Bills. Clause 4 must also be covered by that £17 million. Is there any limit to the amount that can come out of that? The Government are determined that £17 million will be sufficient to cope with the problems of all museums and galleries in the United Kingdom after the abolition of the GLC and the metropolitan county councils.
The money earmarked for the performing arts was £16 million and it was grossly insufficient to the tune of something like £30 million. There was, therefore, a massive shortfall and the new Minister had to deal with it last week. He was unable to persuade the Treasury to give the full amount. That figure for the performing arts is the parallel figure to the £17 million endorsed as sufficient for galleries and museums. Already in the first Bill following the abolition of the GLC and the metropolitan councils, we see that not only does it infringe on the democratic principle but that it also begins to erode the amount of money put to one side.
We must know if there will be sufficient cash to deal with problems arising for museums and galleries in all the metropolitan areas in England and Wales and in London itself, in which other problems may arise. Can the Minister guarantee that there will be no cuts, that sufficient money will come forward and that if the £17 million is insufficient it will be increased? Above all, can he guarantee that there will be no hold-up on the precise archaeological services which his hon. Friend argued for so ably? He said that it was one of the essential parts of the Bill and was almost extending the concept of archaeological services into the field of oral history, as witnessed by recent industrial archaeology at Covent Garden.
Given the record of this Government, the Minister must accept that they are rapidly creating a kind of industrial archaeology as more and more industries and factories which were living parts of the history of London are demolished as a result of the monetarist policies of the Government. If I were not dealing with the narrow remit of this clause I would be prepared to expand on that. The problem facing the Minister is that he has inherited a remit 499 containing the kind of values that run totally counter to the monetarist theories of this Government from the Prime Minister down.
Even in a money resolution the Government have substituted price, money, cash. Their souls chafe at the thought of turning art to cash, as Paul Jennings once said. As my hon. Friend rightly said when speaking in his capacity as chairman of the GLC, in consequence they value nothing. Will we get a guarantee and will more money be coming forward? Will the high hopes we all have for a proper Museum of London and the archaeological service connected with it be properly taken care of by the Government?

§ The Minister for the Arts (Mr. Richard Luce)
From the way in which the hon. Gentleman speaks about the Government's record in the arts, it seems that he has not quite taken on board the fact that in the last six years the Government have more than doubled the amount of money for the arts. In real terms we have increased the money. One of the great national bodies in the arts is the Arts Council and we have increased its money in real terms by 7 per cent in the past six years. I am very proud of the Government's record on the arts.

§ Mr. Buchan
I am delighted to hear from the Civil Service that in the past six years spending has increased in real terms by 7 per cent. We were told by the Minister's predecessor, the Minister who stood in for his predecessor, and the Department that it has been increased by 18 per cent in the past six years. I am glad they have listened to 500 some of the figures I gave them. When we look at the things that had to come out of the increase we find that it is down to about 1.3 per cent.

§ Mr. Luce
The hon. Gentleman is confusing the Arts Council with the general budget for the arts. In real terms the total budget for the Arts Council over the past six years has increased by 7 per cent and there has been an increase in the total budget for the arts. We are talking about a money resolution and that information is by way of background. As I said in my opening remarks, we have made available an additional £17 million to deal with the abolition problems of museums. In his remarks the hon. Gentleman talked about extra funding. That will come from the £17 million. We shall continue under the ordinary budget for the provision of the basic funding.
In considering clause 4, we must remember that the Secretary of State for the Environment is responsible for the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission; I have not dealt with that aspect in the debate and the hon. Member for Paisley, South (Mr. Buchan) will appreciate the point I am making. It is in the context of the additional requirements for the archaeological services of London that we are discussing this resolution.
It has been clear for some time that that commission's annual grant would reflect the additional responsibilities for grant-aiding the Greater London archaeology service. The Secretary of State for the Environment is in that way making additional sums available for the purpose. I hope that, with that explanation, the hon. Gentleman will be satisfied with the position.