§ Mr. Douglas Hogg (Grantham)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to raise a matter of which I have given you notice. You will know that in Friday's debate on the Loyal Address the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Sedgemore) made an extremely lengthy speech. He prefaced that speech by levelling the gravest possible charge against my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He said:
The Chancellor of the Exchequer is perverting the course of justice."—[Official Report, 8 November 1985; Vol. 86, c. 256.]On the face of it, that is a very grave accusation. It is difficult to think of any graver accusation that could be made against a Privy Councillor and a member of the Government.The hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch did not refer to the Chancellor again. In the course of his extremely long speech he made absolutely no attempt to justify that gravest of allegations against a right hon. Member. Is it not a gross abuse of this House for an hon. Member to come to this place and not even seek to substantiate such a grave allegation? Is it not right, therefore, that the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch, who is in his place, should have this opportunity to make a statement, to apologise and to withdraw what he said?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. A point of order has been put to me and I think that I should deal with it at once.
I was not in the Chair when the statement in question was made, but I have read the speech of the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Sedgemore), and in particular the allegation to which the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg) has referred.
This was a serious reflection on the conduct of the Chancellor, and, as the House knows, it is our rule that one Member should not cast such a reflection on another unless the debate is based on a substantive motion dealing directly with the conduct complained of. In making this allegation in the debate on the Loyal Address, the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch breached that rule of order.
I am sure that the House would not wish a personal allegation of that kind, touching the honour of an hon. Member, to remain on the record. I therefore ask the hon. Member concerned to withdraw the comment.
§ Mr. Brian Sedgemore (Hackney, South and Shoreditch)I appreciate the concern of the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg) about the difficulties that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in—[Interruption.]—and I appreciate your concern over this matter, Mr. Speaker. You will know that there has been an exchange of letters today between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and myself.
When I was sent to this House, my constituents expected me to call Ministers to account, and to do so without fear or favour. What has happened in this case is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made a grave, constitutional error and I believe that the right course would be for the Prime Minister this afternoon to call for his resignation. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Is the hon. Member saying, in effect, that he is repeating the allegation that he made on Friday?
§ Mr. SedgemoreI should like to take the easy way out—the coward's way—and withdraw, but, with great regret, I cannot do that. The public outside expect the truth and, with even greater regret, I repeat the allegation.
§ Mr. SpeakerIf the hon. Member will not withdraw that allegation, I shall be forced to name him. I give him one further chance: will the hon. Member withdraw that allegation?
§ Mr. SedgemoreI cannot withdraw that allegation, because it is true.
§ Mr. SpeakerIn that case, I name Mr. Brian Sedgemore.
Motion made, and Question put, That Mr. Brian Sedgemore be suspended from the service of the House.—[Mr. Biffen.]
§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ The House proceeded to a Division—
§ Mr. SkinnerWe have been gagged from speaking on the matter.
§ Mr. Andrew Faulds (Warley, East)(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the comments that you made a few moments ago about the conduct of hon. Members in the House, would not it be in order to require the Minister of State, Home Office to come and make an apology to the House in the light of what he said the other day about hon. Members abusing their position in dealing with immigration problems?
§ Mr. SpeakerThe two cases are in no way connected.
§ Ms. Clare Short (Birmingham, Ladywood)(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I cannot accept that there is no connection between the two cases. You said in your ruling that it was against the rules of the House for one hon. Member to call into question the integrity of another. That is exactly what the Minister of State, Home Office did. If you are to be consistent, you must surely deal with his breach in the same way as you are dealing with the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney. South and Shoreditch (Mr. Sedgemore).
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Lady will know that I received a letter about the allegations made by the Minister of State, Home Office, questioning whether they were a breach of privilege. I am naming the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Sedgemore) because he refused to obey my request to withdraw his statement.
§ The House having divided: Ayes 204, Noes 45.
316| Division No. 1] | [3.36 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adley, Robert | Bellingham, Henry |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Best, Keith |
| Ancram, Michael | Biffen, Rt Hon John |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Biggs-Davison, Sir John |
| Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H. | Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) | Boscawen, Hon Robert |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Vall'y) | Bottomley, Mrs Virginia |
| Baldry, Tony | Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Brandon-Bravo, Martin |
| Beith, A. J. | Brittan, Rt Hon Leon |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) | Latham, Michael |
| Browne, John | Lawler, Geoffrey |
| Bruce, Malcolm | Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel |
| Bruinvels, Peter | Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A. | Lester, Jim |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Lilley, Peter |
| Burt, Alistair | Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham) |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Cartwright, John | McCrindle, Robert |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) |
| Chapman, Sydney | McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | McQuarrie, Albert |
| Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) | Madel, David |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.) | Major, John |
| Colvin, Michael | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Coombs, Simon | Mates, Michael |
| Cope, John | Mather, Carol |
| Cormack, Patrick | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Couchman, James | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Mayhew, Sir Patrick |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Dicks, Terry | Miller, Hal (B'grove) |
| Dormand, Jack | Mitchell, David (Hants NW) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Dover, Den | Monro, Sir Hector |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. | Moore, John |
| Durant, Tony | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Dykes, Hugh | Moynihan, Hon C. |
| Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) | Mudd, David |
| Eggar, Tim | Murphy, Christopher |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Neale, Gerrard |
| Evennett, David | Nelson, Anthony |
| Favell, Anthony | Neubert, Michael |
| Fletcher, Alexander | Newton, Tony |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Norris, Steven |
| Foster, Derek | Onslow, Cranley |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Norman | Ottaway, Richard |
| Fox, Marcus | Owen, Rt Hon Dr David |
| Franks, Cecil | Page, Sir John (Harrow W) |
| Freeman, Roger | Page, Richard (Herts SW) |
| Freud, Clement | Patten, Christopher (Bath) |
| Gow, Ian | Pawsey, James |
| Greenway, Harry | Penhaligon, David |
| Gummer, Rt Hon John S | Portillo, Michael |
| Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) | Powell, Rt Hon J. E. (S Down) |
| Hannam, John | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Harris, David | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Radice, Giles |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover) |
| Hayward, Robert | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Heath, Rt Hon Edward | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Hind, Kenneth | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Rossi, Sir Hugh |
| Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) | Rowe, Andrew |
| Hordern, Sir Peter | Rowlands, Ted |
| Howard, Michael | Ryder, Richard |
| Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) | Sackville, Hon Thomas |
| Howell, Ralph (Norfolk N) | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Jessel, Toby | Silvester, Fred |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
| Johnston, Sir Russell | Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'kl'ds E) |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Jones, Robert (W Herts) | Soames, Hon Nicholas |
| Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Speed, Keith |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Squire, Robin |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Stanley, John |
| Kennedy, Charles | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'field) | Stewart, Ian (Hertf'dshire N) |
| Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil | Stokes, John |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Stradling Thomas, Sir John |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Lang, Ian | Taylor, John (Solihull) |
| Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) | Walker, Bill (T'side N) |
| Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman | Waller, Gary |
| Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. | Ward, John |
| Thompson, Donald (Calder V) | Wardle, C, (Bexhill) |
| Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) | Watts, John |
| Thorne, Neil (Ilford S) | Whitney, Raymond |
| Thurnham, Peter | Wilkinson, John |
| Townend, John (Bridlington) | Williams, Rt Hon A. |
| Twinn, Dr Ian | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Vaughan, Sir Gerard | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Viggers, Peter | |
| Wakeham, Rt Hon John | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Waldegrave, Hon William | Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones and |
| Walden, George | Mr. Tim Sainsbury. |
| NOES | |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Benn, Tony | O'Brien, William |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Park, George |
| Boyes, Roland | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Caborn, Richard | Pendry, Tom |
| Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) | Pike, Peter |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Clarke, Thomas | Richardson, Ms Jo |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| Cohen, Harry | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Dixon, Donald | Rowlands, Ted |
| Eadie, Alex | Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) |
| Eastham, Ken | Short, Mrs R. (W'hampt'n NE) |
| Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE) | Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'bury) |
| Flannery, Martin | Soley, Clive |
| Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) | Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles) |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Haynes, Frank | Wareing, Robert |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Winnick, David |
| Lewis, Terence (Worsley) | |
| Marek, Dr John | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Mr. Dennis Skinner and |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Mr. Tony Banks. |
| Mikardo, Ian |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Mr. SpeakerI direct the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch to withdraw from the House.
§ The hon. Member withdrew accordingly.