HC Deb 13 May 1985 vol 79 cc1-3
1. Mr. Greenway

asked the Secretary of State for Transport how much was lost in the last financial year by London Regional Transport, as a result of fraud; what improvements he expects during the coming year; and if he will make a statement.

The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Mrs. Lynda Chalker)

LRT estimates that about £21 million was lost through fraud last year, compared with about £40 million in 1982. This improvement will be further enhanced by LRT's planned investment of £135 million in a new Underground ticketing system which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State approved last week.

Mr. Greenway

Will my hon. Friend accept that when people get away with fraud it means higher fares for everybody else? Will she congratulate LRT on tackling the problem so much more determinedly than the GLC ever did?(HON. MEMBERS: "Come off it."] Oh yes, there is no doubt about that. Under the GLC £50 million was lost. When will penalty fares come into operation, and will they apply equally to tubes and buses?

Mrs. Chalker

Penalty fares will apply to buses as well as to the Underground when they are introduced, which I hope will be by 1989, when the new Underground ticketing system will be fully in position. I believe that every Administration have sought to tackle fraud, and I am glad that LRT is now having even more success in tackling fraud than was achieved in the past.

Mr. Tony Banks

Will the Minister consider concessionary schemes for the unemployed and the poor in London, who are perhaps tempted into travelling free on the Underground for the simple reason that they cannot afford the fares?

Mrs. Chalker

I can see no justification for that, whatever the hon. Gentleman might say. As he well knows, fares have to be paid by someone, and the further concessionary fares are extended the greater the burden upon the ratepayer.

Mr. Chapman

I welcome the reduction in what presumably can only be an estimated amount of fraud on LRT, but will my hon. Friend give the House an assurance that LRT will take other initiatives in this matter, including measures to control access to LRT stations?

Mrs. Chalker

My hon. Friend is right. Part of the new Underground ticketing system requires new entry and exit barriers in the central areas. The new ticketing machines will make it easier for the public to obtain tickets and mean shorter queues. When nobody is on duty, a permission-to-travel ticket will be available giving the name of the station and the time of issue. Those are all measures which will help to reduce fraud and make the system more efficient.

Mr. Snape

What evidence can the Minister offer the House to justify the reduction in the amount of fraudulent travel which she has just outlined to the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway)?Is she aware that in Westminster tube station, for example, not a million miles from here, her brand new, much-vaunted ticket machines are usually emptied by about 8 pm and then switched off, that there are frequently no staff at the station to sell tickets, and that there are frequently no staff at destination stations to collect them? Will she accept that standards of fare collection and attempts to reduce fraud have fallen dramatically since LRT came into being, and, indeed, many passengers are now getting a worse service from LRT than ever they received from the GLC?

Mrs. Chalker

I regret that, unusually for him, the hon. Gentleman is a little muddled. He asked me for evidence, but that evidence came from LRT. As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, LRT has always undertaken regular surveys into the level of fraud. It has carried out such surveys year in, year out, and has found that the current level of fraud has thankfully been reduced from £40 million to about £21 million. However, that figure is still far too high. All the hon. Gentleman's other complaints about the lack of machines working at certain hours and the lack of ticket collection and so on, at Westminster tube station, which I use regularly — he often sees me in the Underground tunnel—will be dealt with by the new ticketing system. I should be glad to explain it to him after Question Time.