Teachers (Pay) (Hansard, 13 March 1985)

§ 7. Mr. Robin Cook
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will meet the general secretary of the Educational Institute of Scotland to discuss teachers' pay.

§ 11. Mrs. McCurley
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been made in settling the teachers' pay dispute.

§ 14. Mr. Canavan
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to find a fair solution to the teachers' dispute.

§ Mr. Younger
The general secretary of the Educational Institute of Scotland was present when I met representatives of the Scottish joint negotiating committee for teaching staff in school education, at their request, on 28 January and 15 February 1985. I have not been approached by him for a separate meeting.
Despite these meetings with me and clarification of my position in writing, the teachers' side of the Scottish joint negotiating committee for teaching staff in school education continues to oppose a review of pay and conditions of service within that committee. I wrote to the teachers' side on 28 February noting its decision with regret. I, of course, remain willing to meet it again if it wishes to revive the idea of such a review. Meanwhile, I am keeping in close touch with the Scottish Examination Board and with the education authorities in order to ensure that as much as possible is done to safeguard the interests of pupils affected by the present industrial action, especially those in examination years.

§ Mr. Cook
Will the Secretary of State accept that at a meeting of over 100 teachers in my constituency I was informed of a teacher who now qualifies for a rate rebate, of another who now moonlights driving a taxi and of a qualified science teacher who has left to go to work in a bank? Is he prepared to defend the level of professional pay that gives rise to those cases? Can he tell the House how he hopes to get the CSE assessments this year without the co-operation of teachers, or what he expects fourth year pupils to do next year when there are no standard grade materials for them? Does he not appreciate that all these problems would vanish overnight if he stopped running away from an outside opinion and accepted the reasonable, moderate, demand of teachers for an independent review of their pay?

§ Mr. Younger
Like many of us, the hon. Gentleman will have attended meetings at which people will have put statistics before him. He raises matters which are strongly felt, but they are best put in the normal negotiating process which was set up precisely to look at pay and conditions of service. Even at this stage I urge teachers to accept that that is the way to deal with what they see as great grievances which they want sorted out. I am in close consultation with the education authorities and the Scottish Examination Board to ensure that every possible step is taken to see that examinations go ahead and that pupils receive proper recognition for their work. I understand that some education authorities are now prepared to take action against teachers who refuse to carry out instructions on the preparation of pupils for external examinations.

§ Mrs. McCurley
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the refusal of teachers to negotiate means that they might be missing out on the kind of financial redistribution that has happened recently, which has helped the hard-pressed ratepayer?

§ Mr. Younger
I appreciate my hon. Friend's point, but I have confined myself in the teachers' dispute to encouraging teachers to use the machinery that was set up precisely for the purpose of looking into the sort of grievances that they have. I hope that they will do that.

§ Mr. Canavan
How can the Secretary of State possibly justify a situation in which a young person can spend three or four years studying hard at university, followed by another year at a college of education, only to find that a teacher is paid £138 a week less than a policeman? Will the right hon. Gentleman accept full responsibility for the current crisis in Scottish education and the chaos that exists in many Scottish schools? Does he appreciate that it is up to him to help find a solution by agreeing to the legitimate demand for an independent pay review?

§ Mr. Younger
The hon. Gentleman might find, if he really looks into the matter, that it is extraordinarily difficult to compare the totally different jobs of teachers and policemen. Everything to do with their conditions, times and type of work is utterly different. The crisis in the schools to which the hon. Gentleman refers is due to the fact that teachers have decided to use this sort of guerrilla action, to the great deterioration of the chances of their pupils, instead of using the machinery that was set up exactly for the purpose of trying to sort out their grievances.

§ Mr. Michael Forsyth
Has my right hon. Friend noticed that teachers seldom go on strike on Mondays and Fridays? Apparently they get paid for two days' work on Mondays and Fridays, so that teachers who work only two days a week get paid for four days. Will he look into the matter because, if that is the case, it is a disgraceful state of affairs?

§ Mr. Younger
I appreciate the point that my hon. Friend makes. I understand that all sorts of variations on the tune can be played, including allowing for holidays and the like. However, none of that should blind us to the fact that the extreme action of taking labour away from the schools when children are facing examinations—perhaps their only chance of taking those examinations—is a most serious step to take and is quite unjustified by any grievances when machinery exists for dealing with such matters.

§ Mr. Wilson
Is it not a fact that the teachers do not believe that the Secretary of State has, or is prepared to find, the necessary resources to meet their claim under the negotiating procedure to which he has referred, particularly as he has turned down the request for an independent pay review? Is the right hon. Gentleman cramped by the effects of the Barnett formula? If so, will he ask the Treasury for more money so that the matter may be settled swiftly, in view of the harm that is being done to the education of many children?

§ Mr. Younger
I appreciate the point that the hon. Gentleman makes in the last part of that supplementary question, and I am sure that he will use all his influence, at least in his area, to persuade teachers that this is not the right way to pursue their concerns. I have made it clear in my offer to the teachers that if they will go into negotiations and produce a package which includes pay and conditions of service, I shall be prepared to receive and consider constructively such a package and, if it is attractive enough, do my best to find some resources to help. I have given that undertaking and I repeat it today.

§ Mr. Hirst
When my right hon. Friend meets the general secretary of the EIS, will he tell him that many people in my constituency find the tactics of the EIS in victimising pupils who happen to be represented in 297 Parliament by Conservative Members absolutely unfair and disgraceful and very much at odds which the professional standing of teachers?

§ Mr. Younger
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. I have found that even people who are sympathetic to the teachers' cause and who think that the Government should have taken various steps to avoid the present state of affairs are incensed that they should be picked on because of the constituency in which they happen to live. What is happening is quite unjustified at a time when I have made a perfectly reasonable offer to the teachers, and, as every day passes, it is becoming more difficult to implement it.

§ Mr. Maxton
Does the Secretary of State know, as I do, senior teachers who live in Conservative-controlled district council areas, who are at the top of their salary scale in promoted posts and who will require a 3.5 per cent. increase in salary simply to pay the increase that is being demanded in rates? Does that not illustrate clearly the rightness and justice of the teachers' claim and also the absolute mess into which the Secretary of State has got on the rating system?

§ Mr. Younger
Neither of those things is indicated by what the hon. Gentleman has said. The issue we are concerned with here is that teachers feel that they have been badly treated and have grievances they want sorted out. There is no doubt about that. They have decided to take industrial action in the schools instead of using the machinery set up for the purpose of sorting out the problem. That is not justifiable and I hope it will stop.

§ Mr. Bruce
Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that his suggestion that he is prepared to make an offer to the teachers would have more credibility if he had not proposed a £64 million cash cut in next year's education budget? Will he now admit that that was a mistake and restore it? In those circumstances he might reasonably expect the teachers to respond. Will he further admit that finding £38 million for the ratepayers when there was so much protest but not being able to find money for the teachers was a rather cynical choice on his part?

§ Mr. Younger
Both those points are extremely poor. The first one—sorry, I have forgotten what the first one was—

§ Mr. Bruce
The first one was that the Secretary of State has cut next year's education budget by £64 million.

§ Mr. Younger
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman; I am sorry that it slipped my mind. The reduction in the education budget for several years was not as large as the reduction in the number of pupils. Therefore, the amount of money allocated per pupil is at its highest level ever. That should not be overlooked. In regard to the hon. Gentleman's general point, may I repeat that the teachers have a perfectly good way of dealing with their problem. It is getting more and more difficult every day to carry it out, if they come to it, but they have to produce a package of pay and conditions of service.

§ Mr. Malone
Is my right hon. Friend aware that between 1983 and 1984 in Scotland there was an 8 per cent. increase in funding for education per head of population? If that is compared with the figure for England, current spending per head in Scotland is 35 per cent. ahead of spending in England. Is that not a sign that my right hon. Friend is working very hard for education in Scotland?

§ Mr. Younger
I welcome my hon. Friend's efforts to put a bit more realism into the debate on education. The talk about cuts in education cannot be seen except against a background of large reductions in the number of pupils. The fact is that the Government have managed to find enough money to ensure that the amount per pupil has been increasing all the time. There is no excuse, therefore, for standards of education falling.

§ Mr. Tom Clarke
When the Secretary of State gives thought to the important matter of pay, will he bear in mind the widespread discontent among teachers, parents and pupils about the childminder exercise, whereby teachers are being asked to teach subjects about which they know very little and to deal with disciplines which do not relate to their background? Given the serious problem, will the Secretary of State discourage his hon. Friends from making the kind of negative and unhelpful comments that they have made in the House this afternoon?

§ Mr. Younger
I have not heard any negative and unhelpful comments from the Government side of the House. I appreciate that the teachers have strong views, which vary very much between different teachers, about the sort of duties that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. It is not for me to make pronouncements about them in the House of Commons. It is for the teachers to negotiate with their employers in the joint negotiating committee. That is the place where they should be sorted out.

§ Mr. Dewar
The Secretary of State will be aware, of course, that the EIS national council is meeting on Monday. Does he agree that it is very important that everything should be done to persuade the EIS that negotiations would be worth while and would be approached in a reasonably flexible spirit by the Government? In view of that, can he confirm that on Channel 4 news, I think last night, in an interview the right hon. Gentleman said that the negotiations should be not just about pay but also about improved conditions of service? It is important to establish exactly what the right hon. Gentleman meant by that, because the inclusion of conditions has always been taken as meaning that there should be a deterioration in conditions in order to buy some increase on the pay side. If he genuinely means that he is prepared to look at improvements in conditions of service, will he underline that before Monday so that the EIS and other teachers are aware of it?

§ Mr. Younger
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who has raised an important point. I certainly join him in hoping that if the EIS has a council meeting on Monday it will think very long and hard about the industrial action and about the suggestion that it should settle its problems in the joint negotiating committee.
On the deterioration in conditions, what I said during the Channel 4 programme was what I have been saying all along, namely that the package which I hope will come out of the negotiating committee should cover pay and conditions of service. Teachers have several times questioned whether that means a deterioration or an improvement in conditions. I do not put it as strongly as that. I put it in an extremely neutral sense. They must address themselves to conditions of service, and I do not want to pre-empt which way that goes. I would need to have a package which included both pay and conditions of service to justify any attempt to find money from other parts of my programme to fund the package.