HC Deb 13 March 1985 vol 75 cc288-92
4. James Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he last met the general secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Congress; and what matters were discussed.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Allan Stewart)

My right hon. Friend and I meet the STUC from time to time to discuss a wide range of issues. My right hon. Friend last met the STUC on 25 January, when the coal dispute was discussed. The general secretary was not present on that occasion. I met representatives of the STUC most recently on 1 February to discuss education and training matters.

Mr. Hamilton

Will the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend again seek a meeting with the general secretary of the STUC to discuss the intolerable unemployment situation? Will they also discuss the rating revaluation that is taking place, which will have an adverse effect on businesses and further aggravate unemployment? Will they also discuss—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Two questions are enough.

Mr. Hamilton

Will they also discuss the teachers' pay claim—

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is being a bit greedy.

Mr. Stewart

I cannot promise the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend will have a meeting with such a prolonged agenda. My right hon. Friend is always willing to meet the general secretary of the STUC, when it is appropriate. I must point out that manufacturing industry benefits from the revaluation in Scotland. In relation to the hon. Gentleman's point about unemployment, I hope that the STUC will compare Britain's performance with that of the United States. During the past decade, employment in the United States increased by 18.5 million and real weekly earnings fell. During the same period the United Kingdom lost more than 1 million jobs and real weekly earnings rose by 19 per cent. There is a lesson for trade unions in that.

Mr. Malone

When my hon. Friend next meets representatives of the STUC, will he remind them of the productivity deal that was entered into about a year ago at British Shipbuilders, which has resulted in efficiency in some Scottish yards being increased by 25 to 30 per cent.? Will he encourage the STUC to adopt similar practices in other industries, because that is the real way to protect jobs?

Mr. Stewart

My hon. Friend is right. The real way to protect jobs is to improve productivity and to meet customers' needs. The recent orders, such as the outstanding order won by Govan Shipbuilders, are a tribute to the responsiveness of many trade unionists to the needs of a competitive economy.

Mr. Buchan

If the Minister does not propose to meet the STUC early to discuss the mining dispute, and especially the behaviour of Mr. Wheeler of the NCB, will he meet instead the two chief constables who have called for an end to this action? Is it not disgraceful that they find the upholding of law and order on the beat infinitely more progressive than do their masters at the Scottish Office?

Mr. Stewart

There were 900 convictions during the coal strike and fewer than 200 dismissals. The board has considered each case on its merits. I deplore the personal attacks on Mr. Wheeler by Opposition Members. It is about the only thing that unites them on the coal strike.

Mr. Bill Walker

When my hon. Friend next meets the general secretary of the STUC, will he bring to his attention the lessons that came out of the coal strike, especially with regard to trade union and non-trade union workers who worked together to protect their jobs in their industries? Will he especially draw attention to the fact that at Ravenscraig and elsewhere productivity increased?

Mr. Stewart

Yes, Sir. The country owes an enormous debt to the miners who continued to work, despite violence and intimidation, throughout the strike. I join my hon. Friend in praising the efforts of the management and work force at Ravenscraig to keep it going, despite the coal strike and what the STUC said about it on several occasions.

Mr. Home Robertson

Has the Minister seen representations that have been made by the STUC about the provocative and vindictive attitude of the National Coal Board's management in Scotland? Is he aware that 17 of my constituents were tried for what even the police described as minor picket line offences, but they have now been sacked by my constituent, Mr. Albert Wheeler? Is that in accordance with Government policy?

Mr. Stewart

The hon. Gentleman seems to have a wide variety of constituents. I simply point out that any miner who has been sacked and who feels aggrieved can have recourse to an industrial tribunal.

Mr. John Mark Taylor

Will my hon. Friend comment upon the TUC in Scotland mitigating the damage caused to the Scottish coal industry by the NUM, and also condemn the recent violence to the president of the Scottish NUM?

Mr. Stewart

I join my hon. Friend in condemning the recent violent attack on Mr. McGahey, who is a constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Ancram). I hope that the STUC and everyone else will now concentrate on rebuilding the coal industry, to create a competitive industry for the future.

Mr. Norman Hogg

Is the Minister aware that his view of Mr. Wheeler's attitude is very different from what has been widely reported in the press in recent weeks? Will he, as a matter of urgency, meet the STUC and Church leaders in Scotland, who are seeking an amnesty for those miners who have lost their jobs?

Mr. Stewart

The National Coal Board and the Government have made it clear that a total amnesty is out of the question. We must bear in mind the violence and intimidation that went on during the coal strike. That is what Opposition Members too quickly tend to forget.

Mr. Andy Stewart

Does my hon. Friend agree that miners, whether they work in Scotland, England or Wales, should be afforded the protection of the law and that those who break it should suffer the consequences?

Mr. Stewart

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I repeat that the board has made it clear in Scotland, as in the rest of the country, that each case was considered on its merits.

Mr. Douglas

Will the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State reconsider what he said about the National Coal Board examining each case in Scotland on its merits? Mr. Wheeler is on record as saying that he will do no such thing. In his discussions with the STUC and the NUM in Scotland, will the Minister persuade the NCB to examine each case on its merits and to enter as expeditiously as possible into discussions with the NUM so that there may be a return to good industrial relations in Scotland, for the benefit of the mining industry and the Scottish economy?

Mr. Stewart

I have already said that the NCB has examined each case on its merits. I point out to the hon. Member that, although there were 900 convictions during the strike, there have been fewer than 200 dismissals.

Mr. Henderson

When my hon. Friend meets the STUC, will he put to it the view that strikes never do anybody any good? That was particularly marked during the recent coal strike, which has had disastrous consequences for the formerly economic Frances and Seafield collieries in Fife.

Mr. Stewart

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I believe that the Opposition are seeking to divert attention from the real issues that must be faced—the damage that has been done to the coal industry and the need for it to become efficient and competitive. If the industry can achieve those aims, it will have a very good future.

Mr. Martin

The Minister will no doubt know that the STUC is very concerned about the future of the British Rail works at Springburn, where about 1,500 men and women are employed. The proposal is that the work force should be reduced to 500. That means that no longer will there be any railway workshop capacity in Scotland, let alone at Springburn. Will the Minister give an assurance that he will fight for the retention of that workshop?

Mr. Stewart

The House knows of the hon. Gentleman's concern, which he has expressed on a number of occasions, about BREL at Springburn. However, that is a matter for British Rail. Because of changed circumstances, it has had to make this announcement.

Sir Hector Monro

Will my hon. Friend talk to the STUC about employment and confirm that last month there were 342,000 more people in work in the United Kingdom than there were 12 months ago? Is that increase reflected in Scotland?

Mr. Stewart

The short answer to my hon. Friend's question is yes. Total employment up to September 1984 was rising in Scotland, as it was rising in the United Kingdom. There are a number of particularly encouraging signs in the service, oil-related, electronics and manufacturing industries. The last CBI survey was much more encouraging about employment trends than has been the case for a number of years.

Mr. Dewar

Does the Minister accept that justice has to be seen to be done in the miners' dispute? It is no good the Minister saying that there has been an individual review, when many of us know that miners who were involved in very minor incidents, which sometimes resulted only in admonitions, have lost their jobs and been thrown out of the industry after many years of blameless service. Is the Minister aware that Mr. Wheeler has said that all those who have been dismissed are guilty of serious crimes against fellow workers or NCB property? Will he have discussions with the Solicitor-General for Scotland and confirm from his Department's prosecution records that that is just not true? In view of that, will the hon. Gentleman tell the NCB that it would be quite monstrous if there were not to be individual reviews based upon the circumstances of cases of the kind that have taken place in many other parts of the country? Will the Minister at least redeem himself by joining the Churches and the chief constables in making that point forcefully and removing what is rapidly becoming a public scandal about justice in Scotland?

Mr. Stewart

The reasons for the dismissals were set out very fully by Mr. Wheeler in his letter to The Scotsman of 12 March. The NCB completely repudiates the charges of petty vindictiveness that have been put to it. I repeat, if an individual feels that he has a grievance, he has, as has any other employee who has been dismissed, the right of appeal to an industrial tribunal.