Security (Hansard, 7 March 1985)

§ 4. Mr. Marlow
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on security.

§ 12. Mr. Molyneaux
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.

§ 18. Mr. Proctor
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the current security situation in Northern Ireland.

§ The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Douglas Hurd)
Since I last answered questions in the House on 7 February, 11 police officers, one member of the Ulster Defence Regiment, one member of the prison service and seven civilians have died in incidents arising from the security situation in the Province. As the House will know from my statement on Monday 4 March, the incident which claimed the most lives was that on 28 February when the Provisional IRA killed nine police officers at Newry police station — an atrocity which rightly brought widespread condemnation. I know that the House will wish again to join me in extending sympathy to all who were bereaved by terrorist action during this period.
Notwithstanding this tragic loss of life, the security forces have continued their determined efforts to defeat terrorism and to uphold the rule of law. Since the beginning of this year a total of 83 people have been charged with serious offences, including four with murder and seven with attempted murder; and 40 weapons, 1,768 rounds of ammunition and 2 lb of explosives have been recovered.

§ Mr. Marlow
My right hon. Friend might not wish to answer too directly, but does he accept that the overwhelming majority of people in this country, albeit some reluctantly, accept that it would be unreasonable for our security forces, when confronted by armed men apparently bent on violence, to wait until their lives were put at risk and they were fired on before they defended themselves?

§ Mr. Hurd
Such judgments usually have to be made on the spur of the moment. They are bound to be difficult judgments. One cannot generalise sensibly in advance. All I can say is that the test which the courts would apply afterwards, if necessary, would be whether the degree of force used was reasonable in all the circumstances of the case.

§ Mr. Molyneaux
In addition to countering the IRA's shoot-to-kill campaign against Roman Catholics, will the Secretary of State do all in his power to reduce the flow of explosives across the United Kingdom frontier with the Irish Republic?

§ Mr. Hurd
The right hon. Gentleman is on to an important point which is much in my mind. Home-made explosives did the damage at Newry on Thursday night. The explosives were made out of ammonium nitrate, a common farm fertiliser. The problem of fertilisers being converted to home-made explosives exists in the North and in the South. It is logical that the two Governments should work together on that problem.

§ Mr. Proctor
Has my right hon. Friend noticed the growing trend in the IRA to shoot Catholics in the security forces, such as the RUC and, in particular, the prison service? Will my right hon. Friend comment on the motives for such deeds?

§ Mr. Hurd
That is an important matter. Four of the 17 RUC officers killed in the last year are believed to have been Catholics. Two of them were killed at Newry on Thursday night. A Roman Catholic prison officer was also killed recently outside the cathedral at Armagh. It is too early to be certain, but there might be a singling out by the terrorists designed to intimidate members of the minority community who serve with courage and steadfastness 1153 alongside colleagues with similar qualities from the majority community. If that is so, I believe that the campaign will fail.

§ Mr. Nicholson
On Monday afternoon the Secretary of State made a statement to the House in which he announced that large sums of money are to be made available for the provision of better security at border police stations. May I draw to his attention the fact that many of us are aware that the proposals for a new police station in Newry are not new, but have been on the books for many years? Will he assure the House that there will be no more shilly-shallying or dilly-dallying, that the decision will be made, come what may, and that the badly needed station will be provided almost immediately? Will he further assure us that he will not allow those who may try to object to the building of the police station to stand in his way?

§ Mr. Hurd
The hon. Gentleman is right to say that there has been a long delay in the planning procedures for this particular project. I understand that the procedures have now been completed and that the project will proceed. Certainly it has the highest priority.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley
Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House at what time before the carnage in Newry a foot patrol of the RUC did surveillance duty around the police station? Will he assure the House that the members of the RUC who are now on duty at vulnerable border police stations and who are living in portakabins will be safeguarded immediately, and that proper housing accommodation will be put in place for them?

§ Mr. Hurd
On the first point, I am informed that protection is given to the Newry police station by patrolling at all times, and that the responsible patrol was inspected by the divisional commander late on the afternoon of Thursday 28 February. There was never any question of withdrawing protection from any vulnerable base or station. On the second point, we have a massive police buildings programme, which includes 20 major building projects over the next five years and the one at Newry, which the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Nicholson) mentioned. From his knowledge of these matters, the hon. Gentleman will realise that a portakabin is not necessarily more vulnerable than a conventional building, because of the effect of blast and falling masonry. However, he is correct to say that we must provide the best possible technical protection in both the design of new stations and the protection of existing stations, including those in the border area. That is being given the highest priority.
Finally, the hon. Gentleman and some of his hon. Friends made some serious criticisms and gave serious advice in their discussions in the Assembly at Stormont on Monday afternoon. If he or his hon. Friends would like to come and go over that ground with me, I shall be extremely pleased.

§ Mr. Hume
Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Government are aware that international terrorist activities are being financed by insurance companies in the City of London? Will he further confirm that the Government are aware that those insurance companies that provide policies for the payment of ransom against kidnap are providing positive encouragement to kidnapping and other such terrorist activities? Will he confirm that the Government 1154 are aware that the leading insurance company in the City of London has already admitted to paying such ransoms, and will he tell us why the Government have so far refused to make such activities illegal?

§ Mr. Hurd
I am certainly aware that such policies exist and have existed for some time. The hon. Gentleman is correct about that. I have heard arguments both against and in favour of allowing such policies to continue. That is one of the matters that we are now considering.

§ Mr. Benyon
Further to the important question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow), is my right hon. Friend aware that ordinary people cannot understand why the security forces cannot open fire on people carrying offensive weapons? Is it not time to revise the yellow card?

§ Mr. Hurd
I do not believe, on the evidence available to me, that the existing rules act as an inhibition on the legitimate right of our security forces to protect themselves. It is important that they should operate under the rule of law. If my hon. Friend has a suggestion or proposal to make in that regard, he should let me know about it.

§ Mr. Maginnis
Is the Secretary of State aware that some Labour Members, who are destructively critical of his efforts and those of the security forces to protect the law-abiding people of Ulster, have been notably absent both for his statement on Monday afternoon and at Question Time today, when it was obvious that the slaughter of innocent members of the security forces would be raised? What is his interpretation of that?

§ Mr. Hurd
The hon. Gentleman is reopening a matter which had I hoped had been closed. I would simply repeat my view, which I believe is incontestable, that this Parliament is responsible for security in Northern Ireland as in other parts of the United Kingdom, and it is this House to which I must report and am accountable.

§ Mr. Stanbrook
Has it not always been the clear law of this country that soldiers need not wait to be fired upon before they fire in order to avoid being killed?

§ Mr. Hurd
I have stated the law, and that the position under the law as it stands. It is a reasonable position, which is understood by the security forces and in which they are thoroughly and professionally trained.

§ Mr. Archer
Since we all wish the police to operate as effectively and as safely as possible, and since almost everyone, including the Police Federation, is urging the Secretary of State to restructure the police authority and reform the police complaints procedure, will he tell the House whether he proposes to publish a consultation document, and if so, when?

§ Mr. Hurd
The term of office of the present police authority expires at the end of June this year, and I am considering what proposals to make in that regard. It is unfortunately true that some places on the authority are unfilled as a result of decisions taken by the local authorities controlled by the Social Democratic and Labour party, and by the trade union movement. I hope that we can resolve the matter.
As to the police complaints proposals, which are a separate matter, the right hon. and learned Gentleman is 1155 right. I hope that soon I can let him and all the parties interested in this matter have our proposals, which I hope he will find far-reaching and important.