HC Deb 05 March 1985 vol 74 cc777-9 3.32 pm
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich)

I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 10 for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely, the report of the Select Committee on Transport and its conclusions on the Transport Bill which is currently in Committee. This matter is specific because the Transport Committee report, from an all-party Committee, clearly damns the legislation. It talks about dangers to safety standards, where there will undoubtedly be a need for a considerable increase in already inadequate resources. It points out that concessionary fare passes are unlikely to be feasible under unfettered competition—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. This is an important application under Standing Order No. 10, and I cannot hear the hon. Lady.

Mrs. Dunwoody

The Select Committee fears wasteful and unsafe competitive practices.

It is vital that the House should debate the report, because the Committee stage is being pushed ahead without hon. Members having any opportunity to discuss the implications of the report. The matter is even more important because, if the Bill is passed without the Select Committee's report having been discussed, we shall not have the advantage of the helpful and informative evidence, including that of Ministers, given to the Committee. The matter is urgent because today it was linked with a most extraordinary attack by the Under-Secretary on the Chairman of the Select Committee. It was a disgraceful attack on the integrity and chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Tyne Bridge (Mr. Cowans). My hon. Friend's only crime is that he obviously knows a great deal more about transport than the Minister.

The Committee consists of seven Tory Members and three Labour Members, one of whom is the Chairman and does not use his casting vote, except in the normal way to maintain the status quo. Yet today in Committee the Under-Secretary of State suggested in the most appalling manner that the Chairman has misused his responsibilities to change the contents of the report. It is vital that the House should have the chance to debate what is in the Select Committee report because Ministers are anxious that the legislation should go by without people realising the extent and damaging contents of the Bill.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that she believes should have urgent consideration, namely.

the report of the Select Committee on Transport and its conclusions on the Transport Bill which is currently in Committee. As the hon. Lady knows, the only decision that I have to take is whether this matter should take precedence over the business set down for today or tomorrow. I have listened carefully to the hon. Lady, but I regret that I do not consider that the matter she has raised is appropriate for discussion under Standing Order No. 10. I cannot, therefore, submit her application to the House.

Later—

Mr. Don Dixon (Jarrow)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek your guidance about an incident that happened in Standing Committee A this morning. The Committee was dealing with the Transport Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) has referred briefly to the disgraceful attack on the character and integrity of my hon. Friend the Member for Tyne Bridge (Mr. Cowans), the Chairman of the Select Committee on Transport. During debate on the sittings motion this morning, reference was made to the Select Committee's report—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I must stop the hon. Gentleman, because I cannot rule in this Chamber on anything that happens in Standing Committee. It is not for me to do so. The hon. Gentleman must put to me a question that I can answer. I cannot rule on anything that happens in a Standing Committee.

Mr. Dixon

I am not asking for your ruling, Mr. Speaker, but for your guidance. What should members of Standing Committees do when Ministers attack hon. Members who are not members of the Standing Committee? The Select Committee's report was referred to during debate on the sittings motion this morning. The hon. Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. Parris) said that the report was carried on the casting vote of the Chairman, my hon. Friend the Member for Tyne Bridge. The Minister, when winding up the debate on the sittings motion—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman is now doing exactly what I asked him not to do. I cannot deal with anything that goes on in a Standing Committee. That is not a matter for me. The matter is well outside the responsibilities of this Chair and our rules here.

Mr. Dixon

If it is not a matter for you, Mr. Speaker, can you tell hon. Members where they can raise the matter so that hon. Members who are not members of a Standing Committee should not have their character or integrity attacked by a Minister? To whom can the members of the Committee go for guidance?

Mr. Speaker

I can answer that question very easily. The hon. Gentleman should take the matter up with the Chairman of the Standing Committee.

Mr. Harry Cowans (Tyne Bridge)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that it was the House, not one political party, that set up the procedures of the Select Committees. The idea was that the Committees should be all-party Committees and should take evidence from all sources and reach a view. I am not complaining, but I cannot think of one Select Committee that does not have a built-in Conservative majority.

I seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker, on the following point. The wishes of the House should be obeyed and the Select Committees should have the freedom to reach a balanced view. Is not that situation put in jeopardy when the integrity of the Chairman is challenged, from whatever source and on whatever view? An attack on me is an attack on every Select Committee Chairman, who should, in carrying out the wishes of the House, be free to chair that Committee and to reach a conclusion whether or not the Government of the day happen to agree with it. If that freedom does not exist, is there any future for the Select Committees, or are the Chairmen under direction to meet with the Government's—any Government's—desires?

Mr. Speaker

Order. I do not know about what the hon. Member for Tyne Bridge (Mr. Cowans) has said, but I will say—and the whole House will agree—that he is a man of the highest integrity. I would be very surprised if any accusations to the contrary were ever made. Let us move on.

Mrs. Dunwoody

rose—

Mr. Ted Leadbitter (Hartlepool)

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We have a lot of business ahead of us.

Mr. Leadbitter

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. What happened this morning was a serious matter. I note your kind remarks about my hon. Friend the Member for Tyne Bridge (Mr. Cowans). Nevertheless, according to Standing Orders, the conduct or misconduct of an hon. Member in Standing Committee is not something that the Standing Committee or its Chairman can deal with. The Standing Orders make it abundantly clear that, if the offending words are not withdrawn, the matter should properly be reported to the House. I accept that the matter cannot be proceeded with at the moment, but I suggest that if my hon. Friend the Member for Tyne Bridge still feels offended—that is the conditional purport of what I am saying—the matter should be the subject of a proper report to the House unless the hon. Gentleman who used the offending words withdraws them in the Standing Committee. Subject to that proviso, I hope, Mr. Speaker, that you will accept a report, if the principals involved in the matter feel that a report should be made.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Gentleman helps us out of a difficulty. He is a distinguished Chairman of Committees and he is, of course, quite right.