§ 23. Mr. Peter Bruinvelsasked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what was the average clergy stipend within the diocese of Leicester in 1984; and how it compares with other dioceses.
§ Sir William van StraubenzeeThe average incumbent's stipend in July 1984 was £6,565 in the diocese of Leicester and £6,771 nationally. Leicester came 39th out of 43 dioceses.
§ Mr. BruinvelsI thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that stipends do not reflect a living wage and that there are some difficulties with a number of clergy who are having to claim supplementary benefit? Will my 650 hon. Friend go back to the Church Commissioners and encourage them to increase all kinds of stipends so that we have the best people coming forward, rather than some strange people from Durham, for instance?
§ Sir William van StraubenzeeI do not think that it is possible to generalise about stipends or to say whether a particular man is eligible for supplementary benefit. I should be surprised if that were so in the case of an incumbent. If my hon. Friend has an example, perhaps he will write to me. However, he underlines the continuing desire of the Church, both laity and the Church Commissioners, to improve the stipends of full-time clergy.
§ Mr. HefferWill the hon. Gentleman take into account the fact that the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bruinvels), who is concerned about the stipends of local priests, is also concerned about taking people to court? Is not it clear that the hon. Member for Leicester, East would take Jesus Christ to court because he was a revolutionary who tried to change society?
§ Sir William van StraubenzeeI do not think that I am answerable for whatever my hon. Friend may or may not have said.
§ Mr. Frank FieldDoes the hon. Gentleman realise that if any priests are claiming supplementary benefit they are committing fraud, as no one is entitled to claim if he is in full-time work? But perhaps the hon. Gentleman will draw attention to the fact that many priests do have to claim family income supplement.
§ Sir William van StraubenzeeThat was in my mind when I gave my earlier answer, so I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. However, he and I must be careful when trying to evaluate the numbers of those who are eligible for family income supplement.