Dismissed Miners (Scotland) (Hansard, 24 June 1985)

§ 6. Mr. Orme
asked the Secretary of State for Energy what discussions he has had with the chairman of the National Coal Board about the re-employment of dismissed National Union of Mineworkers' members in Scotland.

§ Mr. Peter Walker
Of 9,808 miners arrested during the dispute, more than 7,000 were charged. Of the 5,653 cases so far dealt with, 4,318 were convicted. It is against those figures that one must recognise that 1,019 were dismissed. The board has been reviewing dismissal cases, and 414 miners who were dismissed have been reemployed. I have been assured by the chairman, as he assured the Select Committee on Employment, that area management is continuing the board's policy of reviewing dismissal cases.

§ Mr. Orme
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This question relates specifically to Scotland. Why did the Secretary of State not answer it?

§ Mr. Walker
The facts, figures and the whole approach apply to Scotland in the same way as to everywhere else.

§ Mr. Orme
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. Will the right hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Orme) confine his question to Scotland, because I shall expect every other hon. Member who is called to do the same?

§ Mr. Orme
Is the Secretary of State aware that the decisions that have been taken in Scotland are outrageous, because, of 203 men who have been dismissed, not one has been reinstated? Is this not a matter of natural justice, as has been underlined by the all-party Select Committee report? What action is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to take over Scottish miners who have been dismissed?

§ Mr. Walker
The right hon. Gentleman used the phrase "all-party Select Committee report". It is true that one Conservative Member agreed with parts of that report, but, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows, that report has been widely condemned for having no— [Interruption.] A report which failed to deal completely with the violence that took place—[Interruption.] I assure the House that matters in Scotland are being reviewed on the same basis as elsewhere. Those cases will be carefully considered. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, on behalf of the Opposition, will condemn the view, expressed by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) and by the leader of the NUM, that people who are convicted of violence should receive an amnesty.

Several Hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
I call Mrs. Currie to ask a question about Scotland.

§ Mrs. Currie
Has not each Scottish miner who was sacked exactly the same right as sacked miners elsewhere to go to an industrial tribunal—[Interruption.] Is it not also a fact that in some parts of the country —[Interruption.]

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Lady should be allowed to ask her question.

§ Mrs. Currie
Is it not also a fact that in some parts of the country sacked miners are being reinstated by industrial tribunals and that their rights are being upheld? Does not the unwillingness of the Scottish miners and others to go to court show that they are not interested in staying within the law or using it when it is to their benefit?

§ Mr. Walker
My hon. Friend is quite right. The NCB made it clear to the Select Committee that it will carefully consider any tribunal findings.

§ Mr. Donald Stewart
Is the Secretary of State aware that, despite what the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South (Mrs. Currie) said, sacked miners in Scotland do not apparently have the same rights as other miners in the United Kingdom? It is quite clear that the policy being pursued in Scotland is vicious and irrational compared with the policy being followed in other regions of the United Kingdom. People who did not support the strike, or were not fully behind it, now see that a totally vicious policy is being pursued in Scotland. If the Secretary of State takes no action, it will be clear that he is pursuing the same policy as the National Coal Board.

§ Mr. Walker
As the board has told the Select Committee, it is continuing to review all cases, including those in Scotland. Many people in Scotland who witnessed some of the events around Bilston Glen certainly believe that it is right that some of the miners involved should have been dismissed.

§ Mr. Baldry
Does my right hon. Friend agree that in Scotland and elsewhere the NUM thought that at the end of the dispute it could secure a general amnesty, as it succeeded in doing in 1972 and 1974, and, therefore, many miners were encouraged to participate in violence or intimidation, in the hope that they would have immunity in the short term and in the belief that they could secure an amnesty in the long term? Is it not extraordinary that in the middle of the 20th century anyone should argue that employers should be forced to retain or reinstate men who have burnt their buses, smashed their equipment and assaulted their staff? Is it not right to deal with such conduct through industrial tribunals? Has my right hon. Friend noticed that the Select Committee, whatever else it said, could not bring itself to say that miners had been unfairly dismissed in the dispute?

§ Mr. Walker
The points made by my hon. Friend, who served on the Select Committee, are perfectly correct. Regarding the arguments about an amnesty, it is interesting that both the president of the NUM and the right hon. Member for Chesterfield have said that not only should an amnesty be given by the National Coal Board, but that if a Labour Government came to office an amnesty would be given for sentenced miners, no matter what they were sentenced for by the courts. So far we have no sign from the Leader of the Opposition that he disagrees with that view.

§ Mr. Douglas
Will the Secretary of State pause and consider the question that was asked, which was specifically about Scotland? Two hundred and three men have been dismissed, and not one of those cases has been discussed by the board in Scotland with a view to re-engagement. I gave some information to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, but will the Secretary of State undertake to meet Scottish Members of Parliament and go through this issue and then meet the National Coal Board to ensure fairness and justice, because we are manifestly not getting that at present?

§ Mr. Walker
As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have never refused to meet Members of Parliament on any question, and I will always meet them.

§ Mr. Neale
Does my right hon. Friend accept that many of his Conservative colleagues feel strongly that he should not intervene in matters where miners have been dismissed in this way, and neither should Parliament? Does he accept that if the Select Committee's report, which was decided on the casting vote of the Chairman—and an Opposition Member at that—were put into effect by the House it would lead to the peculiarity of giving miners rights under the law which no other groups enjoy?

§ Mr. Walker
I am interested to know whether there is a similar desire by the Select Committee to investigate some of the ghastly instances of intimidation of working miners which took place.

§ Mr. Foot
Is it not the case that many of the individual decisions being taken by the board not to reinstate miners—Scotland is the worst affected, but other parts are also affected—will poison relations for weeks, months and perhaps years to come? Is it not also the case that the Secretary of State has the right to intervene? If so, why does he not do so?

§ Mr. Walker
The point is made clearly by the figures that I gave to the House. Of 5,653 convictions, slightly more than 1,000 were dismissed, and already 414 have been reinstated. Those figures show that careful consideration has been given.