HC Deb 24 June 1985 vol 81 cc632-4
40. Mr. Soley

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he last met the Civil Service unions; and what matters were discussed.

40. Mr. Teddy Taylor

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he next plans to meet representatives of the Civil Service unions.

The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Barney Hayhoe)

I last met the Civil Service unions on 14 June, with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when matters relating to the pay of the non-industrial Civil Service were discussed. Neither I nor my right hon. and noble Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster have any specific plans to meet the Civil Service unions now.

Mr. Soley

When the Minister next meets the Civil Service unions, will he undertake to discuss with them a further review of security procedures in the Civil Service? Is it not time that he accepted Lord Denning's original definition of subversion as an attempt to overthrow parliamentary democracy by unlawful means? If he does not think that that is an acceptable definition, will he tell the House what he thinks is wrong with it?

Mr. Hayhoe

If the Civil Service unions wish to discuss that issue with me, I am sure that they will be in touch with my office to arrange a suitable time.

Mr. Taylor

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is desirable that we should have an early settlement of current pay claims? Is he aware of the special problem that is faced by the Civil Service in some areas near London because of the vast number of civil servants who are resigning as a result of the wide difference between salaries in the public and private sectors?

Mr. Hayhoe

There are a number of people who are resigning from the Civil Service. There are particular difficulties in and around London for specific grades, but, generally speaking, there is no great problem. It is in areas of specialist experience and knowledge where there are sometimes particular problems. Special measures have been taken to deal with them and will be taken again if necessary.

Mr. Boyes

Does the Minister recall that when a strike of computer operators took place at Newcastle in 1984 it was over a sum of about £50,000? Is he aware that the Minister for Social Security has told me that the Government spent £145 million over that strike? When the right hon. Gentleman next meets the Civil Service unions, will he justify spending £145 million of taxpayers' money to save £45,000 to £50,000? Will he consider telling hon. Members how he can justify such an outrage?

Mr. Hayhoe

The figures that the hon. Gentleman has quoted show the great irresponsibility of the local Civil Service union leaders who were responsible for the strike, which I know was not supported nationally. It arose over an issue on which there was no need for a strike to have taken place.

Mr. Key

What further special measures will my right hon. Friend consider taking in special circumstances in the Civil Service, bearing in mind that in some areas, such as Boscombe Down and Porton Down in my constituency, there is great unrest in a loyal Civil Service about the threat of contractorisation.

Mr. Hayhoe

The special measures that I had in mind were along the lines that we followed earlier, of responding when there is an absolute need to increase pay. We have done that recently, for example, for inspectors of taxes. Measures like that can be taken. I believe that it is the majority view in the House that if there are areas within the public sector where work can be carried out more efficiently by the private sector, we should move in that direction with all due speed.

Mr. Winnick

As the Minister responsible for answering Civil Service questions in the House, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that of the immense admiration felt on the Labour Benches for the people at GCHQ who refused to give up their trade union membership, despite all the pressure from the Government? Does he realise that those are the very people who uphold our democratic claims? As they are not in Latin America or Eastern Europe, should they not be allowed to retain their union membership and their employment?

Mr. Hayhoe

The hon. Gentleman is trying to re-run matters which have been fully debated in the House. In any case, he knows that they are the primary responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.

Mr. Eggar

Is my right hon. Friend able to say how many people are now employed in the Civil Service? Is he satisfied that the unions are co-operating fully with the financial management initiative and other value-for-money initiatives?

Mr. Hayhoe

I commend the great co-operation that civil servants, from the low grades to the higher grades, are giving in trying to provide better value for money. The number of civil servants is now just below 600,000. It is the first time that the figure has been at that level since the end of the second world war. That is a remarkable achievement.

Dr. McDonald

Is the Minister aware that the letter from the chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue dated 24 May 1985 to the Association of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Taxes is the subject of one of a long series of complaints brought by the Council of Civil Service Unions and the Trades Union Congress, under convention 151 of the International Labour Organisation, about the Government's behaviour as an employer, and is at present being considered by the ILO?

Is the Minister aware that he may have misled the House about the nature of the letter, during the last Civil Service Question Time, by quoting selectively from it?

Is the Minister further aware that the letter implies that the career prospects of Inland Revenue staff could be put at risk by taking industrial action, since the chairman's letter clearly states that that is one of a number of factors that will be relevant to decisions about promotion? Will he now agree that that is no way to conduct industrial relations within the Civil Service?

Mr. Hayhoe

Those matters were not discussed when I last met the Civil Service unions, nor, to my knowledge, are they seeking a meeting on them. Matters concerning the ILO are for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment.

The hon. Lady spoke of misleading the House. As I placed the full text of the letter in the Library of the House immediately after quoting from it, I do not see how it can be suggested that I misled the House. I admit that, having quoted only a sentence or a phrase from the letter, by definition that was a selection, but I thought that it put the balance right in view of the hon. Lady's question at that time.

There was nothing new about general policy in the letter, because I had made the same policy report to the House at Question Time some weeks before, so the hon. Lady's main charge falls completely.

Mr. Peter Bruinvels

Is it normal and decent for the Leicester DHSS to challenge all the Members of Parliament based within the city of Leicester to a debate on the social security Green Paper by writing to the Leicester Mercury rather than having the courtesy to write direct to Members of Parliament? Is the method of notifying the press rather than giving Members of Parliament a personal invitation—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman's point is somewhat wide of the question.

Mr. Hayhoe

It is certainly not my responsibility, but I suspect that my hon. Friend will be doing all right in the Leicestershire press.