HC Deb 18 July 1985 vol 83 cc611-2
Mr. Gould

I beg to move, amendment No. 268, in page 181, line 1, leave out 'twelve' and insert 'six'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to take amendment No. 269, in page 181, line 17, leave out 'twelve' and insert 'six'.

No. 285, in page 181, line 27, leave out 'twelve' and insert 'six'.

No. 270, in page 181, line 32, leave out 'twelve' and insert 'six'.

Government amendment No. 190, in page 183, line 17, leave out 'twelve' and insert 'six'.

Mr. Gould

Only an hour ago, although it seems much longer, the Minister was claiming credit for reducing the ambit of Government preference. These amendments give him the opportunity to claim yet more credit, and I hope that he will seize it with alacrity.

More importantly, the amendments seek to achieve what is universally accepted as being a sensible uniformity of provision in this type of taxation. Having reduced the period of VAT preference to six months, a Minister in the other place went on record as saying that the rule should be the same for VAT as for PAYE and national insurance contributions. The Minister will be familiar with the arguments, which we rehearsed at some length in Committee. These amendments offer him another opportunity to carry out that simple principle. Once we have a six-month period for VAT, it is nonsense to have a different period for the other collector taxes.

Mr. Hanley

I remind the hon. Gentleman that this gives my hon. Friend the Minister another chance to agree with the Institue of Chartered Accountants in Scotland.

Mr. Gould

I am not sure that that point has all the force that the hon. Gentleman feels that it should have, given the experience that we all suffered on an earlier amendment, when he used a similar argument, which was brusquely rejected by the Minister. The arguments are familiar, and the Minister's reply may be familiar, but we at least live in hope.

Mr. Millan

I strongly support this series of amendments. It is nonsense that the Government, having conceded the six-montheperiod on VAT, are unwilling to concede it on PAYE. The Minister, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) has reminded us, has said that the Government have been generous to make all these concessions, but every concession has been squeezed out of them. They were reluctant to make any concessions on Government preference, but because of the pressure when the Bill was in the other place and in Committee, certain concessions have been made. Similar arguments have been made about the Bankruptcy (Scotland) Bill, which has been going through simultaneously. We welcome the Government concessions on VAT in Committee.

However, the Government's intention was to have VAT and PAYE treated on the same basis—that was how the Bill was drafted, and there is logic in that. There is now no reason why, having conceded the six-month period for VAT, the Government should not make a similar concession on PAYE.

It is not appropriate at this time of night to go over the arguments in detail, or even in principle. There must be a genuine concern among all those who are concerned in these matters, whether professionally or as Members of Parliament, about the position of small creditors in particular. There is a desire to reduce the preference of Crown creditors, in the interests of ordinary creditors who, in many a typical case, will be small firms for which the bankruptcy or liquidation of a debtor can be extremely serious. Even with the six-month period, the Crown will have a considerable preference that is not available to ordinary creditors. It would be logical and in the interests of small creditors if the Government would concede the six-month period for PAYE in the way that they have accepted it for VAT.

Mr. Fletcher

The right hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Millan) and the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) think that the Government have been reluctant in these matters. I confess that we did not table such amendments ourselves. Indeed, that is not likely ever to happen from these Benches on such matters. Nevertheless, I listened to the arguments objectively and constructively, and it was decided that the Government could give way. We have given way to a large extent on Crown preference. The following amendment confirms the extent to which the Government have given way on VAT.

Throughout our proceedings there has been a misunderstanding on pay-as-you-earn. It appeared in the Cork report, in the debates in the other place, and even in Committee and again this evening. The misunderstanding relates to the idea that PAYE is of a term similar to VAT. There is no question that PAYE has a 12-month accounting cycle, and that payments made during the year are paid to account, but the balancing of the book is done at the end of the year.

The hon. Member for Dagenham said that his arguments were familiar and that he expected to hear familiar ones from me. At least in that respect he has not been disappointed.

Mr. Gould

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. As all the remaining amendments that are selected are Government amendments, unless any hon. Member wishes to raise any matters, with the leave of the House I shall put them together.

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